Australian Politics Forum - Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..

Chard

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Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..
Reply #30 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 4:53pm

Ringer wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 3:14pm:

Funny thing is I have been reading newspapers, watching newsreels and TV news for more than 50 years and I cant recall ever seeing one American victory parade.

So what you're saying is you have an absolutely terrible memory and you failed history as well?

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So if you know how to win wars why doesn't your government?

Yes, becauee we totally didn't defeat the Iraqi military twice... nope, never happened. Didn't do the same to the Afghan military when we punted the taliban from government. We absolutely never bombed North Vietnam to a peace table. The Korean War war just puttered out and everyone sort of just said "f*ck it, lets sleep in" for the last sixty years. Both World Wars never happened either...

Seriously, what smacking planet are you from? It certainly isn't Earth.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75019 Gender:	Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea.. Reply #31 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 4:55pm I was agreeing with you all the way Chard until you got to Vietnam .... you sure you want to claim that one?
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Grey

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Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..
Reply #32 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 5:50pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 4:55pm:

I was agreeing with you all the way Chard until you got to Vietnam .... you sure you want to claim that one?

Or WW2, the Johnny come lately bastards. For two years they were rubbing their hands over the potential bottom line of having a Nazi Empire as their major trading partner. The Battle of Britain, (decimated the Luftwaffe) El Alamein (severly weakening the axis in Nth Africa) and Stalingrad, (Put an end to German hope of victory) had all happened between 2.25 years and six months before an official american boot entered the war in Europe.

Big up the American volunteers who made up the three Eagle Squadrons of the RAF.

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Ringer

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Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..
Reply #33 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 7:48pm

Chard wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 4:53pm:

Yes, becauee we totally didn't defeat the Iraqi military twice... nope, never happened.

Can't have been much of a defeat if you had to do it twice..

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Didn't do the same to the Afghan military when we punted the taliban from government.

Ha ha, the Talebes are stronger than ever.

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We absolutely never bombed North Vietnam to a peace table. The Korean War war just puttered out and everyone sort of just said "f*ck it, lets sleep in" for the last sixty years.

Korea? That's a laugh, your guys were running so hard they left all their gear behind, you were bloody lucky the Chinese let you off with returning to square one. I guess that's why your country has been so pissed ever since and clings on to the dream that your experience in Korea was somehow worth all the blood spilt.

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Both World Wars never happened either...

I know everything about WWII, how the yanks drove the Luftwaffe from the skies and saved England from invasion and certain defeat, how the yanks cracked the Nazi Enigma codes and destroyed the Atlantic U-boat fleets, how Paton's tanks destroyed the Panzer hordes and saved those ungrateful commies and how the Marines liberated Berlin in bloody street by street fighting.

Lets face facts, your country is always at war somewhere or other and has not won anything in two generations.... Embarrassed

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Seriously, what smacking planet are you from? It certainly isn't Earth.

Certainly not from Faux News.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106377 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea.. Reply #34 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 9:20pm Ringer, Quote: Lets face facts, your country is always at war somewhere or other and has not won anything in two generations.... You ungrateful turd. If it wasn't for the Yanks in WW2 we wouldn't be here. The Japs would have slaughtered us.
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Chard

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Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..
Reply #35 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 5:50am

Grey wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 5:50pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 4:55pm:

I was agreeing with you all the way Chard until you got to Vietnam .... you sure you want to claim that one?

Or WW2, the Johnny come lately bastards. For two years they were rubbing their hands over the potential bottom line of having a Nazi Empire as their major trading partner. The Battle of Britain, (decimated the Luftwaffe) El Alamein (severly weakening the axis in Nth Africa) and Stalingrad, (Put an end to German hope of victory) had all happened between 2.25 years and six months before an official american boot entered the war in Europe.

Big up the American volunteers who made up the three Eagle Squadrons of the RAF.

Ah, so we have another historically challenged person focusing on individual battles and completely misunderstanding why the allies had won. See, President Roosevelt knew Germany was out to start poo and start regearing our military and our economy for a war footing clear back in 1936. The main thing is the evonomic side, because it turns out that having a larger industrial base then everyone else involved in the war on both side turned out to be the deciding factor.itvs what allowed us to build ships, aircraft, tanks, shells, bombs, and bullets far faster than anyone could. That in turn meant when we entered the ar fully we did so with a fresh military fully equiped and had enough reserves we could not only replace our loses, we could do the same for our allies.

How much larger was our industrial capacity? In 1937 the US Navy stood at a total 335 warships. In 1938 it was 380. By 1941 the number was up to 790 and in the following three years we more than doubled the size of our navy every year. We produced more warships and capital warships than every other combatand in the war on both sides.

And we did it with less than 50% of our economy on a war footing.

You complain about coming late, yet there we were building up enough military forces to not only bring the hammer down in Western Europe, we were also having to bare the bulk of allied force in the Pacific as well. This is just one aspect of why I can honestly say that without the US the fate of the UK and USSR would have been in doubt and we would have had to end up waiting for AWPD-1 to get carried out around 1948 in order to end the war.

See, the pouers that watch the History Channel harp on about battles, the dumbasses harp on about wonderweapons, but the people who actually know their history are talking logistics.

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Ringer

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Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..
Reply #36 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 6:22am

Bobby. wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 9:20pm:

Ringer,
Quote:

Lets face facts, your country is always at war somewhere or other and has not won anything in two generations....

You ungrateful turd.
If it wasn't for the Yanks in WW2 we wouldn't be here.
The Japs would have slaughtered us.

Like I said, two generation ago.

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Ringer

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Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..
Reply #37 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 6:23am

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 5:50am:

Grey wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 5:50pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 4:55pm:

I was agreeing with you all the way Chard until you got to Vietnam .... you sure you want to claim that one?

Or WW2, the Johnny come lately bastards. For two years they were rubbing their hands over the potential bottom line of having a Nazi Empire as their major trading partner. The Battle of Britain, (decimated the Luftwaffe) El Alamein (severly weakening the axis in Nth Africa) and Stalingrad, (Put an end to German hope of victory) had all happened between 2.25 years and six months before an official american boot entered the war in Europe.

Big up the American volunteers who made up the three Eagle Squadrons of the RAF.

Ah, so we have another historically challenged person focusing on individual battles and completely misunderstanding why the allies had won. See, President Roosevelt knew Germany was out to start poo and start regearing our military and our economy for a war footing clear back in 1936. The main thing is the evonomic side, because it turns out that having a larger industrial base then everyone else involved in the war on both side turned out to be the deciding factor.itvs what allowed us to build ships, aircraft, tanks, shells, bombs, and bullets far faster than anyone could. That in turn meant when we entered the ar fully we did so with a fresh military fully equiped and had enough reserves we could not only replace our loses, we could do the same for our allies.

How much larger was our industrial capacity? In 1937 the US Navy stood at a total 335 warships. In 1938 it was 380. By 1941 the number was up to 790 and in the following three years we more than doubled the size of our navy every year. We produced more warships and capital warships than every other combatand in the war on both sides.

And we did it with less than 50% of our economy on a war footing.

You complain about coming late, yet there we were building up enough military forces to not only bring the hammer down in Western Europe, we were also having to bare the bulk of allied force in the Pacific as well. This is just one aspect of why I can honestly say that without the US the fate of the UK and USSR would have been in doubt and we would have had to end up waiting for AWPD-1 to get carried out around 1948 in order to end the war.

See, the pouers that watch the History Channel harp on about battles, the dumbasses harp on about wonderweapons, but the people who actually know their history are talking logistics.

But where were you when Britain faced invasion?

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Chard

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Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..
Reply #38 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 6:54am

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 6:23am:

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 5:50am:

Grey wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 5:50pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 4:55pm:

I was agreeing with you all the way Chard until you got to Vietnam .... you sure you want to claim that one?

Or WW2, the Johnny come lately bastards. For two years they were rubbing their hands over the potential bottom line of having a Nazi Empire as their major trading partner. The Battle of Britain, (decimated the Luftwaffe) El Alamein (severly weakening the axis in Nth Africa) and Stalingrad, (Put an end to German hope of victory) had all happened between 2.25 years and six months before an official american boot entered the war in Europe.

Big up the American volunteers who made up the three Eagle Squadrons of the RAF.

Ah, so we have another historically challenged person focusing on individual battles and completely misunderstanding why the allies had won. See, President Roosevelt knew Germany was out to start poo and start regearing our military and our economy for a war footing clear back in 1936. The main thing is the evonomic side, because it turns out that having a larger industrial base then everyone else involved in the war on both side turned out to be the deciding factor.itvs what allowed us to build ships, aircraft, tanks, shells, bombs, and bullets far faster than anyone could. That in turn meant when we entered the ar fully we did so with a fresh military fully equiped and had enough reserves we could not only replace our loses, we could do the same for our allies.

How much larger was our industrial capacity? In 1937 the US Navy stood at a total 335 warships. In 1938 it was 380. By 1941 the number was up to 790 and in the following three years we more than doubled the size of our navy every year. We produced more warships and capital warships than every other combatand in the war on both sides.

And we did it with less than 50% of our economy on a war footing.

You complain about coming late, yet there we were building up enough military forces to not only bring the hammer down in Western Europe, we were also having to bare the bulk of allied force in the Pacific as well. This is just one aspect of why I can honestly say that without the US the fate of the UK and USSR would have been in doubt and we would have had to end up waiting for AWPD-1 to get carried out around 1948 in order to end the war.

See, the pouers that watch the History Channel harp on about battles, the dumbasses harp on about wonderweapons, but the people who actually know their history are talking logistics.

But where were you when Britain faced invasion?

Go look up the "Lend-Lease Act". Then go look up "Operation Sealöwe" so you can understand why Britain never was under any serious threat of invasion. Seriously, do none of you actually have an education?

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Peter Freedman

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Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..
Reply #39 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:20am

Chard, in arguing that Britain was never in danger of invasion, you use the benefit of hindsight, at the time the threat was considered very real.

For balance, people should also look up "America First Committee", a huge group set up to keep the US out of the war. One of its most prominent figures was aviator Charles Lindbergh.

The committee disbanded only after Pearl Harbour.

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Ringer

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Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..
Reply #40 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 11:02am

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 6:54am:

Go look up the "Lend-Lease Act". Then go look up "Operation Sealöwe" so you can understand why Britain never was under any serious threat of invasion.

Battle for Britain, Summer 1940. Operation Sea Lion abandoned in Sept (?) 1940.

Lend lease act signed March 1941.

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Seriously, do none of you actually have an education?

Maybe, perhaps you have an education but you should ask for a refund on your tuition fees...

After his failure to invade Britain Hitler turned towards invading the USSR. Perhaps he thought he could win that one but it might have been thought by others that he would fail.

If Hitler attacked the USSR in 1941 and had been beaten America might have found themselves in a world where Britain was reduced to a barely significant island and Stalin ruled all Europe. Is that why the US managed to draw up the courage necessary to get involved? Were they prepared to live with a Nazi Europe but not a Communist Europe?

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« Last Edit: Apr 7^th, 2013 at 11:18am by Ringer »

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Chard

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Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..
Reply #41 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 12:32pm

Peter Freedman wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:20am:

Chard, in arguing that Britain was never in danger of invasion, you use the benefit of hindsight, at the time the threat was considered very real.

The RN and USN were both well aware of exactly how much sealift capability the Kriegsmarine was capable of at the time. That's why there was so much emphisis placed on air defense instead of coastal defense.

That said, we had contingency plans in place back in 1939 for every thing from losing Britain to losing everything East of Newfoundland for how to go about defeating Germany. Even assuming that somehow the German invaded and occupied the UK they were still doomed. It just would have prolonged the end of the war to late '48 to early '49 and resulted in there no long being a nation called Germany.

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For balance, people should also look up "America First Committee", a huge group set up to keep the US out of the war. One of its most prominent figures was aviator Charles Lindbergh.

The committee disbanded only after Pearl Harbour.

There were a lot of organizations opposed to getting involved in a war with Germany. You combine that with a public that still remember how much of a clusterf*ck WWI was. It's a testiment to FDR's skills as a politician that he was able to build our military up so much and get also most half of our industry past congress.

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Peter Freedman Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5275 Wellington Gender:	Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea.. Reply #42 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 12:52pm Ringer, Germany DID attack Russia and WAS defeated. The US entered the European war: 1. Because Germany declared war on it after Pearl Harbour to keep faith with Japan, and 2. Because of a significant change in US public opinion after Pearl Harbour
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Ringer Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 313 Mainland NZ Gender:	Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea.. Reply #43 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 1:13pm Peter Freedman wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 12:52pm: Ringer, Germany DID attack Russia and WAS defeated. Oh! I didn't know that, I thought it was the US that defeated the Nazis! Surely you don't mean to say there was anyone else involved!
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Mnemonic

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Re: Lets take a moment to consider North Korea..
Reply #44 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 2:11pm

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 6:23am:

But where were you when Britain faced invasion?

It's not like the British didn't have a navy. Actually for most of the 100-200 years up to the 1940s, the British had the strongest navy in the world. They had lots of ships and lots of experience. It would have been pretty hard for the Germans to escort troop transports to Britain and to continue reinforcing them with supplies. I think the idea of bombing Britain by air was to bypass its navy. Unfortunately, I don't think there was much they could have done without precision bombing. Arthur Harris' idea of bombing German cities did very little to reduce German industrial capacity, so I doubt that the Germans did much to destroy Britain's ability to fight as well. That's assuming the British wouldn't just chicken out and surrender because they couldn't afford to have civilians dying.

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

If Hitler attacked the USSR in 1941 and had been beaten America might have found themselves in a world where Britain was reduced to a barely significant island and Stalin ruled all Europe. Is that why the US managed to draw up the courage necessary to get involved? Were they prepared to live with a Nazi Europe but not a Communist Europe?

Are you aware of the British attack on Mers-el-Kebir/Operation Catapult? One of the reasons why Roosevelt didn't get involved in the war early on was because Britain wasn't showing that it would stand up to the Germans. It was because of something Churchill did that Roosevelt finally decided to give aid to the British.

I think it would help if we looked at what the situation was at the time. One of Winston Churchill's biggest fears was that with the French government then under German control, the French Navy might also come under German control as well. Churchill wrote to Roosevelt, urging him to offer assistance, lest the British government and its Navy fall under the control of German hands. This could have been viewed as a threat by Roosevelt, because Churchill was saying that if the Germans held a gun to their heads, the British might declare war on the USA and attack its ships.

I can't remember what Roosevelt's reply was based on the documentary I saw, but Churchill realised he couldn't get Roosevelt's help if he didn't do something drastic himself. Churchill made a difficult decision. He decided to seize control of the French Navy by force and turn on their allies. Churchill sent British ships to every French fleet, issuing them with an ultimatum: come with us, leave your French ports and continue the fight against the Germans, or be destroyed. The French fleet at Mers-el-Kebir didn't comply and was bombarded mercilessly by the British.

It was only after Churchill showed that he would stand up to the Germans that Roosevelt offered to send ships and supplies to Britain.

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