Australian Politics Forum - Did America learn anything from Hitler?

Mnemonic

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #30 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:30pm

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 6:56pm:

A lie is still a lie no matter how many people choose to believe it. If enough people believe 2+2=3 it doesn't mean math is wrong, it just means they're terrible at math.

I think what matters is who is in power to define truth. Have you seen the film Nineteen Eighty Four? It establishes that whoever is in power defines the truth. Math can be twisted to serve those in power.

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MOTR

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #31 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:33pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:26pm:

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 11:21am:

Looking through notes regarding Hitlers plan to invade Russia I was reminded of the 'Barbarossa jurisdiction Decree', which exempted German soldiers from prosecution if they committed a crime against any Soviet civilian.

America has exempted itself and her military from prosecution should they commit crimes against civilians in countries such as Iraq (or anywhere else in the world for that matter).

As if Hitler invented the idea of indemnifying one's own armies' troops. Roll Eyes

As if Hitler invented carrying out pogroms on the Jews. What's your point?

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Ringer

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #32 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:38pm

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:29pm:

Yes, it is wrong to use civilian legal standards simply because most civilan law is inadaquate for handling general court marshall proceadings.

Inadequate? The penalties handed down by the military courts in the case of the murder of Taxi Driver Dilawar were so lenient that the President was moved to complain.

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Chard

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #33 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:42pm

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:38pm:

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:29pm:

Yes, it is wrong to use civilian legal standards simply because most civilan law is inadaquate for handling general court marshall proceadings.

Inadequate? The penalties handed down by the military courts in the case of the murder of Taxi Driver Dilawar were so lenient that the President was moved to complain.

People misusing a system doesn't invalidate that system.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #34 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:43pm

MOTR wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:33pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:26pm:

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 11:21am:

Looking through notes regarding Hitlers plan to invade Russia I was reminded of the 'Barbarossa jurisdiction Decree', which exempted German soldiers from prosecution if they committed a crime against any Soviet civilian.

America has exempted itself and her military from prosecution should they commit crimes against civilians in countries such as Iraq (or anywhere else in the world for that matter).

As if Hitler invented the idea of indemnifying one's own armies' troops. Roll Eyes

As if Hitler invented carrying out pogroms on the Jews. What's your point?

There's hardly a need to refer to Hitler, then is there. What's your real point?

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Ringer

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #35 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:47pm

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:42pm:

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:38pm:

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:29pm:

Yes, it is wrong to use civilian legal standards simply because most civilan law is inadaquate for handling general court marshall proceadings.

Inadequate? The penalties handed down by the military courts in the case of the murder of Taxi Driver Dilawar were so lenient that the President was moved to complain.

People misusing a system doesn't invalidate that system.

You are the one to mention (right and) wrong. Roll Eyes

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Chard

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #36 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:53pm

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:47pm:

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:42pm:

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:38pm:

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:29pm:

Yes, it is wrong to use civilian legal standards simply because most civilan law is inadaquate for handling general court marshall proceadings.

Inadequate? The penalties handed down by the military courts in the case of the murder of Taxi Driver Dilawar were so lenient that the President was moved to complain.

People misusing a system doesn't invalidate that system.

You are the one to mention (right and) wrong. Roll Eyes

What does that have to do with anything? I know you're keen to pad your post count past 100 so you can spam urls instead of spamming North Korea threads, but do me a favor and least try not to make useless +1 posts.

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Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack.

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MOTR

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #37 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:01pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:43pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:33pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:26pm:

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 11:21am:

Looking through notes regarding Hitlers plan to invade Russia I was reminded of the 'Barbarossa jurisdiction Decree', which exempted German soldiers from prosecution if they committed a crime against any Soviet civilian.

America has exempted itself and her military from prosecution should they commit crimes against civilians in countries such as Iraq (or anywhere else in the world for that matter).

As if Hitler invented the idea of indemnifying one's own armies' troops. Roll Eyes

As if Hitler invented carrying out pogroms on the Jews. What's your point?

There's hardly a need to refer to Hitler, then is there. What's your real point?

I'm far from a clear cut position on this one. What about you? Under what circumstances do you believe military personnel should be exempt from civilian law?

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Ringer

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #38 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:07pm

MOTR wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:01pm:

I'm far from a clear cut position on this one. What about you? Under what circumstances do you believe military personnel should be exempt from civilian law?

I find it difficult to conceive a definition of when, or even if, military personnel should be exempt from civilian law.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #39 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:15pm

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:07pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:01pm:

I'm far from a clear cut position on this one. What about you? Under what circumstances do you believe military personnel should be exempt from civilian law?

I find it difficult to conceive a definition of when, or even if, military personnel should be exempt from civilian law.

So the point to this thread is?

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Chard

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #40 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:17pm

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:07pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:01pm:

I'm far from a clear cut position on this one. What about you? Under what circumstances do you believe military personnel should be exempt from civilian law?

I find it difficult to conceive a definition of when, or even if, military personnel should be exempt from civilian law.

We try US military personnel in civilian courts all the damn time. The key parameters are what crime was committed, where it happened, and whose jurisdiction said personnel were arrested in. The more serious the offense and any involvement of operational or classified information greatly increases the probability that the soldier will be tried under the UCMJ instead of civilian law. Turns out very few civilian courts have the security clearances.

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MOTR

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #41 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:31pm

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:17pm:

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:07pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:01pm:

I'm far from a clear cut position on this one. What about you? Under what circumstances do you believe military personnel should be exempt from civilian law?

I find it difficult to conceive a definition of when, or even if, military personnel should be exempt from civilian law.

We try US military personnel in civilian courts all the damn time. The key parameters are what crime was committed, where it happened, and whose jurisdiction said personnel were arrested in. The more serious the offense and any involvement of operational or classified information greatly increases the probability that the soldier will be tried under the UCMJ instead of civilian law. Turns out very few civilian courts have the security clearances.

I would have thought the more serious the offence the more likely they should be handed over to civilian authorities, especially cases of rape or murder.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #42 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:36pm

MOTR wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:43pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:33pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 7:26pm:

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 11:21am:

Looking through notes regarding Hitlers plan to invade Russia I was reminded of the 'Barbarossa jurisdiction Decree', which exempted German soldiers from prosecution if they committed a crime against any Soviet civilian.

America has exempted itself and her military from prosecution should they commit crimes against civilians in countries such as Iraq (or anywhere else in the world for that matter).

As if Hitler invented the idea of indemnifying one's own armies' troops. Roll Eyes

As if Hitler invented carrying out pogroms on the Jews. What's your point?

There's hardly a need to refer to Hitler, then is there. What's your real point?

I'm far from a clear cut position on this one. What about you? Under what circumstances do you believe military personnel should be exempt from civilian law?

I believe Imperial (or imperialistic) powers will always protect their combatants from foreign law wherever and whenever they can. Their vassals (such as, say, Australia to its US overlord), will follow suit where they can. A good case in point is the fact that neither George W Bush nor John Howard has faced an inquiry into the prosecution of the Iraq war and neither, for that matter, are the people calling for an inquiry. A US President is immune from prosecution anyway and Australia's Parliament has chosen not to call Howard to account.

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Chard

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Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler?
Reply #43 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:43pm

MOTR wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:31pm:

Chard wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:17pm:

Ringer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:07pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:01pm:

I'm far from a clear cut position on this one. What about you? Under what circumstances do you believe military personnel should be exempt from civilian law?

I find it difficult to conceive a definition of when, or even if, military personnel should be exempt from civilian law.

We try US military personnel in civilian courts all the damn time. The key parameters are what crime was committed, where it happened, and whose jurisdiction said personnel were arrested in. The more serious the offense and any involvement of operational or classified information greatly increases the probability that the soldier will be tried under the UCMJ instead of civilian law. Turns out very few civilian courts have the security clearances.

I would have thought the more serious the offence the more likely they should be handed over to civilian authorities, especially cases of rape or murder.

Sometimes we do. Very recently we let th e Japanese try, convict, and imprision a couple of servicemen fot rape. Not even remotely the first time we've done that either. The key thing though is that none of those happen in active warzones and involve evidence requiring a TS or better clearance to view.

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Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack.

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MOTR Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6646	Re: Did America learn anything from Hitler? Reply #44 - Apr 7^th, 2013 at 8:57pm I can understand the difficulties, but also the concerns about cover ups and miscarriages of justice. Are there any provisions for cases to be reviewed?
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