Australian Politics Forum - Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush

NorthOfNorth

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Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Apr 10^th, 2013 at 4:11am

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-09/howard-defends-decision-to-invade-iraq/461...

John Howard ‘vents his spleen’, expressing his anger at the suggestion that he sent Australia to war in Iraq with anything other than the purest of intentions at heart.

Although he gives it away later on in the article by reminding us all that Australia is a “100 per cent ally, not a 70 or 80 per cent one". Read “Australia is a vassal state of the US”.

‘Obviously’ our overlords did not make Howard privy to facts on the ground, such as US frustration at Iraqi oil remaining nationalised (ultimately requiring the ‘sexing up’ of WMD ‘intelligence’ to act as a pretext for war) – A scenario that (evidently) most of the world (with the notable exceptions of Australia and Britain) was entertaining as more likely.

But, John, you needn’t worry (as I’m sure you’re not). As you say of the Chinese who “ 'get' our alliance with America”… Australia – your people – ‘get’ our relationship with the US too – Australia is a vassal state and we are a vassal people – ‘Ours is not to question why… Ours is just to do or die’.

And for that we will be rewarded and indulged.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/bush-honours-man-of-steel-howard-with-medal-of-fr...

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #1 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 6:59am

And John, if you think we're believers in your 'outrage'... Just one question...

Why, in 2009, long after the WMD scam was exposed for what it was, did you accept the US Medal of Freedom for your services as a vassal Head of Government in the 'Coalition of the Willing'?

Sure, by 2009 you had nothing politically to lose, you'd already been dumped, but really the bit about your seeing the medal as "very much as a compliment to Australia"???

Vassal nations aren't usually all that hyped about being exposed for what they are... They usually like to quietly get on with the job of serving and hope they won't be outed as the town bike.

In other words it was a compliment to you alone, John... A gross act of flattery on Bush's part for awarding it and a gross act of cynicism on yours for accepting it.

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philperth2010

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #2 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 7:07am

John Howard sent our young men and woman off to war without the support of Parliament or the people.....We now know the justification was fabricated and the result was a disaster.....Most of the world did not believe the bullshit despite Howards claim to the contrary.....That is why there was only a handful of nations who defied the UN and invaded a sovereign country for there resources......John Howard f@cked up and now he is to shallow and arrogant to admit he was completely wrong and people like Andrew Wilkie where 100% correct.....History will show that Australia invaded Iraq without a UN mandate and without justification.....Howard cannot accept when you defy the people and the Parliament you must be 100% correct or expect to be condemned.....Iraq is a complete basket case thanks to John Howard and his mates Bush and Blair!!!

Angry

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Armchair_Politician Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25823 Gender:	Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush Reply #3 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 7:49am It would have definitely been better to have left a murderous dictator in power than to get rid of him and his regime.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #4 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 8:15am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 7:49am:

It would have definitely been better to have left a murderous dictator in power than to get rid of him and his regime.

The US has nothing against murderous dictators per se (think Pinochet, Mubarak, the Shah and Saddam himself as examples)... And, by that, neither does Australia.

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Dnarever

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #5 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 8:30am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 7:49am:

It would have definitely been better to have left a murderous dictator in power than to get rid of him and his regime.

And kill 100,000 plus people in an illegal war justified by lies.

Had Howard said that we didn't really know but we are allies to the US and are going to support them I could have accepted that, but not the dishonesty or the lies we were told.

We have been Happy to leave murderous dictators in place all around the world and each leader who invaded Iraq has clearly stated that they would not invade to achieve regime change though I will not rule out the possibility that that was another lie.

At the end of the day John Howard made us the aggressor in an illegal war and got all the reasons for doing it wrong, to put it kindly

The most disgraceful despicable thing an Australian leader has ever done by a country mile.

People claim that he is a war criminal and the justification is clearly evident.

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Dsmithy70

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #6 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 8:34am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 7:49am:

It would have definitely been better to have left a murderous dictator in power than to get rid of him and his regime.

Did he have boats full of explosives Puddle?

Quote:

but what if it had been a boat full of dynamite with a person onboard hellbent on destruction?

Ya Knob

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #7 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 8:39am

Dsmithy70 wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 8:34am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 7:49am:

It would have definitely been better to have left a murderous dictator in power than to get rid of him and his regime.

Did he have boats full of explosives Puddle?

Quote:

but what if it had been a boat full of dynamite with a person onboard hellbent on destruction?

Ya Knob

Just out of curiosity, why does that make me "a knob"???

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Scott Morrison DID wipe the floor with Bull Shitten!!!

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #8 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 9:24am

Did Howard explain anywhere why he continually avoided a stream of ONA advice (you know the one agency that should be listened to on matters of intelligence) - advising that the Iraq WMD intelligence was bogus?

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 7:49am:

It would have definitely been better to have left a murderous dictator in power than to get rid of him and his regime

How much worth? At what point do you say it wasn't worth it? Over 100 000 dead civilians? Millions displaced? Decimated economy and infrastructure? The installation of just another murderous dictator (which is what Al Maliki is shaping up to be)?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #9 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 11:30am

"I think the question, if you don't mind me saying, is flawed in itself.
Now would I do the same thing again? Make the same decisions? If its based on the same evidence I had at the time then yes absolutely.

Look we invaded Iraq and removed Saddam Hussein because it was the right thing to do. I didn't do it for popularity, when you have significant members of your own party against you and you're relying on the Conservative opposition to support you against your own members, then obviously its not a popularity thing.

Would I make the same decision again? Yes.
Do I have any regrets? Well obviously any death, particularly those of British servicemen who have gone in under my instruction weighs heavily with me, but regrets? No I don't.

We made the choice to remove this tyrant and I regret nothing on that.
It was, quite simply the right thing to do."

Tony Blair
Parliamentary Inquiry, 2012.

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Swagman

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #10 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 11:42am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 6:59am:

And John, if you think we're believers in your 'outrage'... Just one question...

Why, in 2009, long after the WMD scam was exposed for what it was, did you accept the US Medal of Freedom for your services as a vassal Head of Government in the 'Coalition of the Willing'?

Sure, by 2009 you had nothing politically to lose, you'd already been dumped, but really the bit about your seeing the medal as "very much as a compliment to Australia"???

Vassal nations aren't usually all that hyped about being exposed for what they are... They usually like to quietly get on with the job of serving and hope they won't be outed as the town bike.

In other words it was a compliment to you alone, John... A gross act of flattery on Bush's part for awarding it and a gross act of cynicism on yours for accepting it.

A bit better than getting a yellow stripe painted down your back and a white feather in the mail Comrade Northy....

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Dnarever

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #11 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 2:06pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 11:30am:

"I think the question, if you don't mind me saying, is flawed in itself.
Now would I do the same thing again? Make the same decisions? If its based on the same evidence I had at the time then yes absolutely.

Look we invaded Iraq and removed Saddam Hussein because it was the right thing to do. I didn't do it for popularity, when you have significant members of your own party against you and you're relying on the Conservative opposition to support you against your own members, then obviously its not a popularity thing.

Would I make the same decision again? Yes.
Do I have any regrets? Well obviously any death, particularly those of British servicemen who have gone in under my instruction weighs heavily with me, but regrets? No I don't.

We made the choice to remove this tyrant and I regret nothing on that.
It was, quite simply the right thing to do."

Tony Blair
Parliamentary Inquiry, 2012.

If its based on the same evidence I had at the time then yes absolutely.

There was a substantial amount of genuine evidence where the leaders had made sure that they were not exposed too.

The Iraq WMD scientist who had moved to Canada who wanted to address both Australia’s Parliament and the USA equivalent telling anyone who would listen that the WMD stockpile had been destroyed in the first war along with most of the scientists and technology chemicals and records along with the building containing them. Also that he had reviewed the work of the remaining scientists capable and found they were mostly doing credible work in agriculture.

This guy was refused - the relivant authorities didn't want to know the truth.

The decisions were made based on the evidence they wanted much of it manufactured or presented dishonestly.

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #12 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 2:43pm

Dna - Can I point you to the address of Hans Blix in Jan 2003 to the assembled Security Council.

"It is regrettable that Iraq still does not fully understand or appreciate the terms of the resolutions of this Council and continues to not comply fully with the full, unrestricted access of the UNSCOM Inspectors to any site. The Inspectors do continue to be denied access to several facilities"

2003.

13 years after the demands of the Council.

Did we not give them enough time??
How long did he want to comply?

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush Reply #13 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 2:50pm I've heard all that bleating before it's a broken record. You same idiots would have been bleating the same crap when the Japs were breathing down our necks. Go and have a latte and count your dole cheque stubs you'll feel much better....
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Dnarever

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #14 - Apr 10^th, 2013 at 2:51pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 2:43pm:

Dna - Can I point you to the address of Hans Blix in Jan 2003 to the assembled Security Council.

"It is regrettable that Iraq still does not fully understand or appreciate the terms of the resolutions of this Council and continues to not comply fully with the full, unrestricted access of the UNSCOM Inspectors to any site. The Inspectors do continue to be denied access to several facilities"

2003.

13 years after the demands of the Council.

Did we not give them enough time??
How long did he want to comply?

You are aware that this group had been infultrated by inteligence opperatives who wanted access to certain areas for no legitimate reason.

How long did he want to comply?

Iraq's capacity to produce WMD's was gone before the war ended and the rest soon after. They had complied.

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