Australian Politics Forum - Are forums like this slowly dying?

greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 136432 Gender:	Re: Are forums like this slowly dying? Reply #45 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:28pm Mnemonic wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:23pm: Alinta wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 6:31pm: Still reckon there's a subtle (or not so subtle) element of elitism in perceiving someone as either "normal" or "intellectual" Most of us here are normal. Speak for yourself.
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Lobo

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #46 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:33pm

freediver wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:03pm:

I'm with Yadda on this one. It's not exactly creative.

A lot of newspaper owned forums are shutting down for the simple reason that it is not profitable if you have to pay someone to moderate it, and there is no way to stop people complaining to paid employees about what is on there.

Me too, though I find myself sorely tempted at times.

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Mnemonic

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #47 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:35pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 6:45pm:

Classless societies are a Marxist pipe-dream.

Elitists are needed by the common swill to organise and run things.

This is why people shouldn't swear. It's not because it's "wrong," there's nothing inherently "wrong" with swearing. I could say the F-word all I wanted. The problem with swearing and insulting people is that it usually doesn't help the situation. My advice is: don't do it!!!! Find another way to solve your communication problems.

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

I don't agree with that view.

I think that it, swearing, still reveals the inferior [lazy] mind.

It's not just swearing that I consider a lazy behaviour. I think insults are lazy too. It's a waste of breath when you can articulate something more constructive.

Grey wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:02pm:

One thing that frustrates me here, is that conversations, (threads) are so short. I'd like to have a list of favourites that are a constant for months. You're lucky if they last a week.

Oh I don't really want long threads. Long threads have too many pages, usually full of short posts. I would rather have a short thread with people crying out a lifetime of sorrow and grief than a long thread of people popping out posts ad nauseum that don't really say much. It's quality over quantity.

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Are forums like this slowly dying? Reply #48 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:40pm Mnemonic wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:23pm: Alinta wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 6:31pm: Still reckon there's a subtle (or not so subtle) element of elitism in perceiving someone as either "normal" or "intellectual" Most of us here are normal. Nobody here is 'normal'
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Lobo

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #49 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:44pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:12pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

"People swear at others, because they [the swearer] don't know how to express themselves [properly]."

Couldn't disagree more.

If I call someone a c*nt, it's because that's exactly how I feel at the time.

If I were to call them a rotter, I would not be expressing myself properly.

Crikey, Gregg....How can anyone take something so delightful and use it to denote something nasty??

Wink

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #50 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:47pm

Lobo wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:44pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:12pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

"People swear at others, because they [the swearer] don't know how to express themselves [properly]."

Couldn't disagree more.

If I call someone a c*nt, it's because that's exactly how I feel at the time.

If I were to call them a rotter, I would not be expressing myself properly.

Crikey, Gregg....How can anyone take something so delightful and use it to denote something nasty??

Wink

Yes, you have a good point.

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Lobo

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #51 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:54pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:47pm:

Lobo wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:44pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:12pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

"People swear at others, because they [the swearer] don't know how to express themselves [properly]."

Couldn't disagree more.

If I call someone a c*nt, it's because that's exactly how I feel at the time.

If I were to call them a rotter, I would not be expressing myself properly.

Crikey, Gregg....How can anyone take something so delightful and use it to denote something nasty??

Wink

Yes, you have a good point.

I'm tempted to say....
"Yes, and I try to put it to good use."

But there are ladies present, so I wont.

Grin

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Kat

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #52 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:08pm

Morning Mist wrote Today at 5:50pm:

"But anyway, Freediver hits on the central point that this childishness is due to these types of forums being opened up to the "normal person." Many of these "normal people" think they are an expert on all things. There are a few posters here, though, that definitely know their topic, and they are always worth reading because of that. "

Agree.

Some are always good for getting the facts from. Funnily, they seem to cop more
than their fair share of crap from those who think they know.

Some of the rubbish NBNmyths has to put up with, for example. Or Perce over his
knowledge of economics. Or even the crap I have to wear for my support of welfare
recips.

There's way too much of the 'shoot the messenger' mentality here nowadays, it seems
to be the object to try to offend or belittle the poster, rather than post a cogent and
rational argument against their post.

There are a small number of members (mostly, but not all, righties) who are, quite
frankly, nothing more than bullies, and some others whose abysmal lack of even a
rudimentary ability to grasp facts makes worthwhile discourse impossible. I tend to
avoid, as far as possible, responding to these posters, as to do so is to invite a torrent
of 'leftard, commo, dole-bludger'-type comments, even if you are not. So why bother?

Then there are those (Number-Plate Man, for example) whose sole contribution to any
discussion is to throw disparaging comments at whoever takes their fancy.

The recent proliferation of 'Spot' threads would have done nothing to encourage
anyone reading them to register, and were, IMO, not something the forum needs.

I have been a member for nearly three years, and it saddens me to see how many
posters from back then simply don't any more. Most of the 'good guys' from Yahoo
are gone as well, many were bullied or trolled until they went away (Vegitamite,
anyone?).

I don't think the place will die, but equally I'd hate to see it become nothing more
than a Mutual Admiration Society for the more right-leaning members. We have
enough members from both ends of the spectrum, but I'd like to see a lot more
moderate/centrist members, though.

As for swearing, it depends on the setting, circumstances and context. There are
times/places where I'd never dream of swearing, and others where I don't give it
a second thought. I don't speak the same way at a presentation dinner as I do
when working on a car with a couple of mates. The trick is to be able to know
when it's acceptable and when it's not.

OK, you can attack now....

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« Last Edit: Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:17pm by Kat »

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #53 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:17pm

Alinta wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 6:03pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 5:58pm:

moses wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 5:48pm:

What's an intellectual?

Someone knowledgeable on a topic, or a number of topics, who also possesses critical thinking skills?

Why would "normal" posters be perceived as lacking within your definition Misty???

Often because they don't possess the knowledge on the topic under consideration. It's okay to comment on a topic, but people just need to know their limits.
You do agree there are degrees of understanding on issues?

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Are forums like this slowly dying? Reply #54 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:23pm Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:17pm: You do agree there are degrees of understanding on issues? There are also legitimate POV that differ. I do believe that a tertiary education, particularly in the much disparaged 'humanities' improves comprehension skills.
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Grey

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #55 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:27pm

Mnemonic wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

Oh I don't really want long threads. Long threads have too many pages, usually full of short posts. I would rather have a short thread with people crying out a lifetime of sorrow and grief than a long thread of people popping out posts ad nauseum that don't really say much. It's quality over quantity.

There's no corelation between length of thread and length of post that I've noticed. People with short attention spans can of course avoid threads they find taxing. The main reason for short threads is ego driven. The desire to be the star who started the conversation.

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cods

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #56 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:40pm

perceptions_now wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 3:37pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 3:28pm:

Not if my hosting bill is anything to go by.

There are a few trends at play here.

1) More people on the internet. Political discussion boards are no longer dominated by a small number of more motivated and interested individuals ("intellectuals"). The "normal people" have invaded. So there has been a corresponding drop in quality of discussion. There are still forums out there that are restrictive and more popular than ever before - just nowhere near as popular as the ones with a broad target audience.

2) Personalisation. This is where facebook comes in, and twitter to a lesser extent (not very familiar with twitter). Facebook deals very effectively with the troll side of things and allows people to feel safer putting private information online, which is probably the main reason why it is so successful. I do have some friends on facebook who use it for pushing a political barrow (and get defriended by some people as a result). If this forum grows in popularity I would like to switch to a similar concept - where instead of me starting boards where everyone can post, you can start your own board and only invite whoever you want. I am basically just waiting for a freeware version of that.

3) Turnover. Things are changing rapidly. Forums and websites will come and go.

I'll give you the interested individuals, BUT it would be a big strecht to also refer to many of those individuals as "intellectuals".

Just look at Maqqa & Longweakend?

can we also add skippy and sob and john smith to that list........at least macca and longy give answers or ask questions...why wopuld anyone debate someone like skippy who only ever uses one or two lines and they both are usually almost always loaded with abuse..

I dare you to argue about that percy!

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #57 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:44pm

Mnemonic wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:21pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 5:58pm:

moses wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 5:48pm:

What's an intellectual?

Someone knowledgeable on a topic, or a number of topics, who also possesses critical thinking skills?

No, intellectuals are more than that. They know their topics in depth and they are very "professional" about it. Intellectuals know enough about their topics to explain any relevant problem to ordinary people and they treat it like it's their job. They treat their "topics" with great care and know them in great detail. They know the subtle differences between different arguments, to the point where they can show how something people normally think is "bad" can be "good" under certain conditions. I'm not saying they're spin doctors, however.

People who aren't "intellectual" have gaps in their knowledge and often have to resort to insults to make their point.

That's pretty much what I was getting at.
Intellectuals, in the true sense of the word, are rare though. I've conserved with and read enough "intellectuals" to see that they often have a moral ambition driving their thinking. It must be said, though, that those who I've conserved with are from the Humanities and Social Sciences where hard empirical evidence is not often used. Moral concerns drive the soft sciences. I mean, it may seem "intellectual" to support gay marriage and then write a dissertation of why everyone should support it. But what is intellectual about that? Everyone has a moral position on something. So what's so "academic" about it? Not much. They might learn research and writing skills, but that doesn't mean they've acquired critical thinking skills.

But there's another problem here: How do you refute a moral? We can dislike someone's moral position, but how do you refute it in an objective sense? You can point out the hypocrisies and contradictions in someone's morals, but that just means they haven't been consistent with their own moral preaching; it doesn't refute it.

But there's a major distinction to be made: That of understanding and that of the projection of values. Intellectuals should have a lot of "understanding" on their topic and be open to new or alternative information. However, once they start saying "this is good" and "that is bad," then they are projecting their values.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #58 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:47pm

Grey wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:23pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:17pm:

You do agree there are degrees of understanding on issues?

There are also legitimate POV that differ. I do believe that a tertiary education, particularly in the much disparaged 'humanities' improves comprehension skills.

If the Humanities stuck to teaching critical thinking, research, and writing skills, then its students should graduate with the ability to comprehend issues better. But, the Humanities is so full of moral stances that it clouds judgements and further investigation.

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Kat

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Re: Are forums like this slowly dying?
Reply #59 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 9:01pm

Grey wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:23pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 8:17pm:

You do agree there are degrees of understanding on issues?

There are also legitimate POV that differ. I do believe that a tertiary education, particularly in the much disparaged 'humanities' improves comprehension skills.

It certainly wouldn't hurt them... :

While I do not have the 'benefit' of a tertiary education, I was brought-up in a household
where books were everywhere, the newspapers were read and discussed, and where my
love of reading was encouraged at every opportunity. I could both read and write before I
started school (1963).

By the time I was in Year 3, I was actually attending the Year 6 classes for reading and
comprehension AND was near the top of the class. I continued to be in the Advanced
classes for the remainder of my school career (in most subjects, but maths wasn't my
strong suit).

I had an English teacher for most of High School who also encouraged me, and gave me
a fair bit of 'under the table' tuition and extra 'work'.

I've certainly never had any trouble with my reading, writing, spelling or comprehending
but then I suppose it's like everything else. It's easy to learn something if you WANT to
learn it.

So, that tertiary education may help, but I reckon it helps to have the basics first. And
judging by the comprehension skills displayed by some members, I doubt they'd make
it to tertiary level.

BTW: - I was assessed as being easily a candidate for tertiary education, and was plan-
ning on a career as a primary-school teacher. But circumstances dictated otherwise.

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« Last Edit: Apr 14^th, 2013 at 9:13pm by Kat »

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