Australian Politics Forum - H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops

Rider

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #30 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:53am

muso wrote on Jul 26^th, 2013 at 7:19pm:

Good post, apart from the personal insults.

Well insults are the stock in trade for alarmist clap trap.

Oh, and I'm not scared of a few mm of ocean rises, and there is no basis for attributing any naturally occurring event (every natural event seen today has been seen before, there is no increase proven in occurrence nor severity - you turn your panic control back to normal..ok??)

Have you noticed the discord between rising co2 and temperatures......another oops moment - you do realise your primary tenet is now proven to be broken? you need to take your hypothesis back to the shop and I do hope us tax payers get a refund.

Oceans rise, oceans fall, no biggy so get over it and get on with your life and stop trying desperately to create a fear based political solution to a non problem. Climate blah blah blah is so yesterday.

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #31 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:59am

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:46am:

[quote author=Ajax link=1366374129/26#26 date=1375052887]

If your theory cannot be proven by real world data its just a theory!!!![/quote]

Stand by for one of the AGW cult's most ridiculous statements:

"Gravity is a theory too".

Grin

or you massage / amend the data......up with temperatures, hide an ice age, create a few new records (third day in a row in the same socks...I think this is a new record Grin

) make some homogenising averaging calculations to make yourself a......hockey stick Cheesy

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muso

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #32 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 11:39am

Rider wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:53am:

muso wrote on Jul 26^th, 2013 at 7:19pm:

Good post, apart from the personal insults.

Well insults are the stock in trade for alarmist clap trap.

There is no need to resort to insults.

Quote:

Oh, and
I'm not scared of a few mm of ocean rises, and there is no basis for attributing any naturally occurring event (every natural event seen today has been seen before, there is no increase proven in occurrence nor severity - you turn your panic control back to normal..ok??)

First of all, you can panic all you like, but I don't think I've said anything about panicking. There has been a statistically proven increase in severity. I'll give you the link to the paper if you want, but as it's against your agenda, I suppose you'll dismiss it in some way or other.

There have been storms in the past, and it makes sense that if you increase the energy of the system by reducing radiated Long Wave Infrared emissions to space, storms will continue to be more frequent and more severe in the future. Put it this way, how many 1 in 100 year flood events do you need to show that things have changed? There is a sound statistical basis for this.

Quote:

Have you noticed the discord between rising co2 and temperatures......another oops moment - you do realise your primary tenet is now proven to be broken? you need to take your hypothesis back to the shop and I do hope us tax payers get a refund.

What exactly is the primary tenet that you're referring to? I don't have anything to do with government policies. All I'm concerned about is those who bastardise basic atmospheric physics to support their cause of "Do nothing"

Quote:

Oceans rise, oceans fall, no biggy so get over it and get on with your life and stop trying desperately to create a fear based political solution to a non problem. Climate blah blah blah is so yesterday.

Ocean rises and falls are caused. They don't just happen and we understand the causes pretty well. During the last Ice Age it was due to the Milankovitch cycles. Obviously this is not the cause today. We know this because we can and do measure the orbital parameters of the Earth pretty accurately. How do you think they can get satellites and space probes to go where we want them to go without a detailed knowledge of orbital parameters? The causes of past cooling and warming are different to those of today.

I'm not interested in political solutions or wealth distribution. I'm certainly not left of centre and it's not a partisan issue by any means.

Atmospheric Physics just happens to be one of my subjects, and I've had over 20 years experience in Environmental Management for large corporations.

There are other ways of maintaining the current economic system without resorting to burning coal and oil. It should be obvious to anyone with solar panels on their roof (for example) that we can maintain or improve our standard of living and reduce impact on the environment at the same time. Nobody is asking you to wear tie died clothes and sing Kumbaya or go back to living in straw huts. Renewable energy is a totally practical proposition.

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Rider

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #33 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 2:47pm

muso wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 11:39am:

Rider wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:53am:

muso wrote on Jul 26^th, 2013 at 7:19pm:

Good post, apart from the personal insults.

Well insults are the stock in trade for alarmist clap trap.

There is no need to resort to insults.

Quote:

Oh, and
I'm not scared of a few mm of ocean rises, and there is no basis for attributing any naturally occurring event (every natural event seen today has been seen before, there is no increase proven in occurrence nor severity - you turn your panic control back to normal..ok??)

First of all, you can panic all you like, but I don't think I've said anything about panicking. There has been a statistically proven increase in severity. I'll give you the link to the paper if you want, but as it's against your agenda, I suppose you'll dismiss it in some way or other.

There have been storms in the past, and it makes sense that if you increase the energy of the system by reducing radiated Long Wave Infrared emissions to space, storms will continue to be more frequent and more severe in the future. Put it this way, how many 1 in 100 year flood events do you need to show that things have changed? There is a sound statistical basis for this.

Quote:

Have you noticed the discord between rising co2 and temperatures......another oops moment - you do realise your primary tenet is now proven to be broken? you need to take your hypothesis back to the shop and I do hope us tax payers get a refund.

What exactly is the primary tenet that you're referring to? I don't have anything to do with government policies. All I'm concerned about is those who bastardise basic atmospheric physics to support their cause of "Do nothing"

Quote:

Oceans rise, oceans fall, no biggy so get over it and get on with your life and stop trying desperately to create a fear based political solution to a non problem. Climate blah blah blah is so yesterday.

Ocean rises and falls are caused. They don't just happen and we understand the causes pretty well. During the last Ice Age it was due to the Milankovitch cycles. Obviously this is not the cause today. We know this because we can and do measure the orbital parameters of the Earth pretty accurately. How do you think they can get satellites and space probes to go where we want them to go without a detailed knowledge of orbital parameters? The causes of past cooling and warming are different to those of today.

I'm not interested in political solutions or wealth distribution. I'm certainly not left of centre and it's not a partisan issue by any means.

Atmospheric Physics just happens to be one of my subjects, and I've had over 20 years experience in Environmental Management for large corporations.

There are other ways of maintaining the current economic system without resorting to burning coal and oil. It should be obvious to anyone with solar panels on their roof (for example) that we can maintain or improve our standard of living and reduce impact on the environment at the same time. Nobody is asking you to wear tie died clothes and sing Kumbaya or go back to living in straw huts. Renewable energy is a totally practical proposition.

That'll be great, post up the evidence of any increased weather event severity attributable to man made global warming. Should be interesting.

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muso

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #34 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 7:23pm

Rider wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 2:47pm:

That'll be great, post up the evidence of any increased weather event severity attributable to man made global warming. Should be interesting.

http://www.climate.org/topics/extreme-weather/

Quote:

Since 1970, tropical cyclone activity has increased in the North Atlantic (1). Activity is measured not only by the frequency and number of storms that develop, but also by their intensity and duration (collectively named the Power Dissipation Index). A marked increase in the PDI began around 1970, though a less-defined (but still substantial) increase began in the early 1950’s.

Also see:

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/48/19601
Quote:

The largest cyclones are most affected by warmer conditions and we detect a statistically significant trend in the frequency of large surge events (roughly corresponding to tropical storm size) since 1923. In particular, we estimate that Katrina-magnitude events have been twice as frequent in warm years compared with cold years (P < 0.02).

and,
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/30/12219.abstract?sid=b7f0cbc6-d5af-4b76-9326-19...

Read very carefully. It's based on past evidence as well as predictions based on ocean surface temperature trends. This latest study (Jul 8 2013) is the latest in a growing body of evidence that cyclones are becoming more intense as global warming heats the oceans.

Another link to a paper showing increased storm frequency was posted here last year. I'll try to find that one too.

Can't find it. Anyway, have a read here too:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121130151651.htm

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« Last Edit: Jul 29^th, 2013 at 7:41pm by muso »

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muso

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #35 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 7:53pm

Ajax wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:08am:

muso wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:02pm:

No warming since 2003? An even shorter interval and totally flying in the face of the data.

You know, I reckon we haven't had any warming since last Summer either. Maybe that's significant. Damn those greenies. Grin

At least we now know that you get most of this from Joanne Nova's blog. (psst - she's a molecular biologist. She doesn't have any climatology credentials and several times, she has demonstrated her ignorance of basic climate science almost as effectively as you have. )

Do you dismiss the empirical data of 3000 buoys all over our oceans against a hypothesis from a computer simulated model?

Theory vs Real data??????

What I'm dismissing is cherry picking the data so that the 0-700 metre data is overlooked, even though that section of the ocean contains the most heat! It's obvious when you look at the graph that they have "diluted" the data from the original study (which was not theirs). You do realise that they are discarding approximately 85% of the data?

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« Last Edit: Jul 29^th, 2013 at 8:08pm by muso »

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Ajax

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #36 - Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:02am

muso wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 7:53pm:

Ajax wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:08am:

muso wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:02pm:

No warming since 2003? An even shorter interval and totally flying in the face of the data.

You know, I reckon we haven't had any warming since last Summer either. Maybe that's significant. Damn those greenies. Grin

At least we now know that you get most of this from Joanne Nova's blog. (psst - she's a molecular biologist. She doesn't have any climatology credentials and several times, she has demonstrated her ignorance of basic climate science almost as effectively as you have. )

Do you dismiss the empirical data of 3000 buoys all over our oceans against a hypothesis from a computer simulated model?

Theory vs Real data??????

What I'm dismissing is cherry picking the data so that the 0-700 metre data is overlooked, even though that section of the ocean contains the most heat! It's obvious when you look at the graph that they have "diluted" the data from the original study (which was not theirs). You do realise that they are discarding approximately 85% of the data?

Hey Muso

Come on dude get real FFS, where have they discarded 85% of the data???

The data is freely available.

Climateorg???...............is that brother or sister to Skeptical science???

Hey muso just a thought champ, since 1998 one thrid of all manmade CO2 emissions have been released into our atmosphere yet the temperatures are dropping!!!!!!

How can you explain that one?

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2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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muso

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #37 - Jul 30^th, 2013 at 7:45pm

Ajax wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:02am:

Hey Muso

Come on dude get real FFS, where have they discarded 85% of the data???

85% of the heat absorbed by the ocean is in the layer from the surface to 700metres. Their data comprises the 700metre to 2000 metre segment only.

Quote:

I dont think Jo disregards it at all (0-700metres) the problem is its not there.

Actually it is there, but she and partner Dave Evans didn't notice it.

If you compare their data with the real data, it's pretty obvious that they have manipulated the data.

The actual observations in the paper that they cite (of course they omit that part) aligns almost perfectly with model predictions, whereas their manufactured data is clearly much lower.

Quote:

Climateorg???...............is that brother or sister to Skeptical science???

It's the Climate Institute. Their credentials seem quite sound in contrast with the Radio Announcer Anthony Watts or the Microbiologist/ Children's TV presenter Joanne Nova, or her husband Dave (Rocket Scientist) Evans.

Quote:

Hey muso just a thought champ, since 1998 one thrid of all manmade CO2 emissions have been released into our atmosphere yet the temperatures are dropping!!!!!!

Hang on, didn't you say earlier that they were not manmade? Which of your posts are we supposed to believe?

Remember your post?

Quote:

The crux of AGW is how much CO2 in our atmosphere is natural and how much is manmade.

The problem with the IPCC reports is that they attribute all CO2 rises in our atmosphere to antropogenic emissions.

- then you went on to say that it's actually only 3% of that.

So have you changed your mind since that post?

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« Last Edit: Jul 30^th, 2013 at 8:26pm by muso »

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Ajax

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #38 - Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 9:53am

muso wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 7:45pm:

85% of the heat absorbed by the ocean is in the layer from the surface to 700metres. Their data comprises the 700metre to 2000 metre segment only.

The buoys would have detected this heat, Jo didn't manipulate it she is just pointing it out.

Quote:

Actually it is there, but she and partner Dave Evans didn't notice it.

Sorry champ like i said its not there in the empirical data.

Quote:

If you compare their data with the real data, it's pretty obvious that they have manipulated the data.

If you can show where they have manipulated the data please do so.

Quote:

The actual observations in the paper that they cite (of course they omit that part) aligns almost perfectly with model predictions, whereas their manufactured data is clearly much lower.

Yes and its purely due to AGW, nothing else matters but that right.......WRONG.

Quote:

It's the Climate Institute. Their credentials seem quite sound in contrast with the Radio Announcer Anthony Watts or the Microbiologist/ Children's TV presenter Joanne Nova, or her husband Dave (Rocket Scientist) Evans.

Skeptical science is anything but a climate institute, its a blog run by Mr. Cook who has very close ties to Al Gore hence my naming of these disciples as Algorians.

Quote:

Hang on, didn't you say earlier that they were not manmade? Which of your posts are we supposed to believe?

I said that since 1998 more than 1/3 of ALL antropogenic CO2 emissions have been released into our atmosphere, yet temperatures are falling.

Where is the unequivocal warming....where every year the temperature surpasses the previous year?

Quote:

Remember your post?

Quote:

The crux of AGW is how much CO2 in our atmosphere is natural and how much is manmade.

The problem with the IPCC reports is that they attribute all CO2 rises in our atmosphere to antropogenic emissions.

- then you went on to say that it's actually only 3% of that.

So have you changed your mind since that post?

Please read it again.

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muso

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #39 - Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 12:47pm

Ajax wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 9:53am:

Sorry champ like i said its not there in the empirical data.

I'm trying to get you to think for yourself rather than parroting Joanne Nova's blog, because I think you're capable of some reason. Do you have the link for the source data, and have you actually read the paper?

I'm not going to hand it on a platter to you. Do some digging, and keep an open mind. If you can't find the link, let me know and I'll give it to you.

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muso

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #40 - Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 3:33pm

Ajax wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 9:53am:

Quote:

It's the Climate Institute. Their credentials seem quite sound in contrast with the Radio Announcer Anthony Watts or the Microbiologist/ Children's TV presenter Joanne Nova, or her husband Dave (Rocket Scientist) Evans.

Skeptical science is anything but a climate institute,

I wasn't talking about Skeptical Science. That was on another thread. I was talking about the Climate Institute.

http://www.climateinstitute.org.au/

The Climate Institute is an independent research organisation.
Quote:

Parts of the country saw back-to-back wet years in 2010 and 2011 - Australia's wettest two-year period on record. But it wasn't soggy everywhere: while the north copped heavy and widespread flooding, Western Australia's rainfall in April was nearly at 60 per cent below average. This is the lowest since 2001. In fact, most of Australia saw drier-than-average conditions in 2011, according to CSIRO. This follows the warmest decade since records began.

The 2013 summer has been excessively hot, prompting the Bureau of Meteorology to add new colours—purple and pink—to its weather map to denote temperatures once considered off the scale: up to 54°C. In fact, January 2013 became Australia’s hottest month on record, with an average temperature of 40.3°C. For the first time since records began, the average temperature exceeded 39°C for seven days straight, breaking the earlier record set 1972. - See more at: http://www.climateinstitute.org.au/explore-climate-change.html#sthash.2cJBYEPK.d...

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #41 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 3:26pm

progressiveslol wrote on Apr 19^th, 2013 at 10:22pm:

New data falsifies basis of man-made global warming alarm, shows water vapor feedback is negative

Oops. There is a feedback the AGW cult was looking forward too.

Physicist Clive Best has analyzed the latest NASA satellite and radiosonde data to find that global water vapor has declined despite the consensus belief among climate scientists that it would rise in response to man-made carbon dioxide. Dire predictions of global warming all rely on positive feedback from water vapor. The argument goes that as surface temperatures rise so more water will evaporate from the oceans thereby amplifying temperatures because H2O itself is a strong greenhouse gas. The fact that water vapor has instead declined indicates water vapor feedback is negative, overwhelming alleged warming from CO2, and accounting for the stall in global temperatures over the past 16+ years. As Dr. Best notes, "All climate models (that I am aware of) predict exactly the opposite. Something is clearly amiss with theory. Is it not now time for “consensus” scientists to have a rethink?"

http://clivebest.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/TPW-global.png

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/new-data-falsifies-basis-of-man-mad...

The hydrological cycle says HIGH!

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BatteriesNotIncluded Gold Member Offline MediocrityNET: because people died for this! Posts: 26966	Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops Reply #42 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 3:29pm ...oh, and I"m reliably informed greg is about to give this forum a world exclusive on the particle that sends gravity!!
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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #43 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 3:31pm

Ajax wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:02am:

muso wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 7:53pm:

Ajax wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:08am:

muso wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:02pm:

No warming since 2003? An even shorter interval and totally flying in the face of the data.

You know, I reckon we haven't had any warming since last Summer either. Maybe that's significant. Damn those greenies. Grin

At least we now know that you get most of this from Joanne Nova's blog. (psst - she's a molecular biologist. She doesn't have any climatology credentials and several times, she has demonstrated her ignorance of basic climate science almost as effectively as you have. )

Do you dismiss the empirical data of 3000 buoys all over our oceans against a hypothesis from a computer simulated model?

Theory vs Real data??????

What I'm dismissing is cherry picking the data so that the 0-700 metre data is overlooked, even though that section of the ocean contains the most heat! It's obvious when you look at the graph that they have "diluted" the data from the original study (which was not theirs). You do realise that they are discarding approximately 85% of the data?

Hey Muso

Come on dude get real FFS, where have they discarded 85% of the data???

The data is freely available.

Climateorg???...............is that brother or sister to Skeptical science???

Hey muso just a thought champ, since 1998 one thrid of all manmade CO2 emissions have been released into our atmosphere yet the temperatures are dropping!!!!!!

How can you explain that one?

Don't know much about phase change do ya buddy! Grin

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rabbitoh07

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Re: H2O decreasing while CO2 rises! Oops
Reply #44 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 6:14pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:46am:

Ajax wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:08am:

If your theory cannot be proven by real world data its just a theory!!!!

Stand by for one of the AGW cult's most ridiculous statements:

"Gravity is a theory too".

Grin

Yes Greggery. "Gravity is a theory too".

What do you find ridiculous about that?

Can you explain?

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