Adamant wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 8:46am:



You condemn too readily.  All adherents?  Or just some?  Are they mainstream or extremists?

The Conquistadores believed they were good Christians, bringing the word of the lord to the Aztec and the Inca.  Didn't stop them killing, torturing and raping though, did it?

Joseph Koney today does exactly the same, while proclaiming the words of Christ.   He believes he is a good Christian by doing so.

Many other "good Christians" have committed atrocities in peace and war in the name of their god.

Odd how it's only Muslims who get criticised though...   

moses wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 6:27pm:


You are attempting to compress 1400 years of history into your guilt trip over Islam, Moses while deliberately ignoring the equivalent 1400 years of your own religion's bloody, barbaric history.

Your simply are incapable of looking at the issue of Islam and Muslims in a civilised, mature way.   I've argued with you for years, shown you for the hate filled, bigoted, ignorant, small minded man you are upon numerous occasions and you still refuse to learn.   You are a Zealot, Moses.  Your mind is closed, so closed that no chink of rational light can ever be seen in that little kernel you call a brain. 

For you, hating Muslims is the new anti-Semitism.  In WWII you'd have been happily hating Jews, now you hate Muslims.   Such bigotry is built upon ignorance and hatred.   

Lionel Edriess wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 8:52pm:


Lionel, I'm sorry that you've chosen to no longer post at debate and relate.  There, I could debate this issue with you properly.  I have, as you know considerable research on it, with the sources and the stats to prove it but I can't post it here because of the limitations this board places on the use of proper referencing.

Were you aware that there have been more acts of Terrorism on US soil by Jewish inspired terrorists than Muslims ones?   Were you aware of the number of acts of Christian inspired Terrorism around the world?   No, I suspect not, nor do I suspect you really care.

All we hear is over-whelming emphasis on Muslim inspired terrorism.   I wonder why?   

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 9:20pm:


The point is, you and others continually forget Matthew 7:3.

I'd recommend you read it.   

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Then criticise them not over religion but over their proposals and actions, FD.   Continual criticism of other's religion merely plays into their hands and allows them to portray themselves as the persecuted.   Surely you're intelligent enough to able to argue against them, rather than trying to link every Muslim to the beliefs of a small minority in their ranks?

Malaysia, one of the more populous Muslim nations has just held a democratic election.   It may have been flawed but that had absolutely nothing to do with the religion of most of the citizens.  The fact that it occurred at all, rather demolishes the believe that democracy and Islam are incompatible?

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You asked me for what I believed, FD.   I supplied the answer.  Now you're taking umbrage because you asked the wrong question?   

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Yet you don't seem to be criticising Christians for doing exactly the same thing.  I wonder why?   

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Moses doesn't and my criticism was directed to Moses, FD, not you.   

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They point out the inherent bigotry in continual criticism of Muslims and Islam without corresponding criticism of Christians and Christianity, FD.  If you need that explained, then I suspect you're not interested in balance, now are you?   

Lionel Edriess wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 9:33pm:


So, you admit that your real purpose is to engage in bigotry, Lionel?

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Only after I'd beaten you around the head several hundred times pointing out the fallacies inherent in your language.

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The interpretation of Islam, Lionel.  There is a difference.  There is no one, single, unified religion called "Islam" and I'm sure you're well aware of that.   It is not centrally directed or controlled.  It is riven with Schism and sectarian differences, great and small.

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We know the ultimate aim of Islam is no different to the ultimate aim of any other proselytising religion, like, say, Christianity, Lionel.  Yet you single out Islam for special attention.  Why?   

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:


Nope.  Just realise that while you're criticising Muslims, you're turning a blind eye to all the non-Muslims who have done and do the same things.   Fairness, FD.  A concept you appear to not understand.

Oh, and it's not all Muslims who seek to dismantle freedom and democracy.  Its not even just Muslims who seek that.  Yet you insistently attack and criticise all Muslims for wanting that, completely without evidence.  That is bigotry.

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No they aren't.  For some Muslims, perhaps but what evidence do you have it is for all Muslims?

I served in the Australian Army with a Muslim.  He was my best mate.  He swore to defend Australian freedom and democracy.  On a Q'ran.     According to your views that would be impossible.   

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Yes.  I've applied for an account.  I wish to correct the obvious mistakes and provide some balance in it's entries.  Will you give it to me or is your wiki, your wiki and no other viewpoint is allowed?  Mmmm?

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So there are differing interpretations of Islam?

Yet, according to your Wiki, that is impossible.  Ah, contradictions, don't you just love 'em?   

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You didn't ask that and you know it.  You asked me what I believed the punishment should be.  I answered that question, FD.  You don't like the answer.

You've been caught out, tripped up with your own absurdities.   


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There are many examples of that occurring everyday around the world, FD yet you remain studiously silent.  Your silence proves my case for me.

Did a Muslim scare you as a baby or something or did you learn your bigotry at your father's knee or did it come from your mother's breast milk?  That's the level of it, it appears.

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No, you have to give Muslims a fair go, a chance to explain themselves and to also accept those explanations.

You excuse away and belittle the excesses of Christians it seems.  I find that interesting.  It again proves my point.  If you were interested in principle, it wouldn't matter the religion of the people committing the excesses.  It appears only Islamic extremism matters to you.   

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:


Simplistic as always FD. Islam does not become "dilluted" in a nice linear fashion the further east you go. Lets look at islam's "homeland": Saudi Arabia - sure its pretty extreme because its controlled by wahabists. yet directly north of their you have very strong secular traditions in Iraq and Syria. East of that is Iran, which is extreme now, but until 1979 was secular - almost militantly so - and was of course a fledgling democracy until US and British intelligence overthrew it in 1953. Then further west you have a very benign islamic regime in Jordan (led by a remarkably progressive monarchy), and Palestine which despite the stresses of occupation and direct efforts by the Israelis to destroy them - remains a predominantly secular society. North of that of course is the strictly secular nation of Turkey, right next to the secular nation of Azerbaijan. Not to mention the entire North African arab world which is either secular autocratic (Algeria, Morocco) or newly democratic (Tunisia, Egypt).

Of course your portrayal of a "filtering" islam as you move east is destroyed when looking at the terrorist hotbeds in Afghanistan and Pakistan (well east of islam's "heartland") - a more extremist islam you are unlikely to find anywhere else.

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:


Brian seems like he is spot on with his assessment on blasphemy. There is no reference to any punishment in the quran, and in fact the most relevant verse on the subject describes how muslims should simply ignore them - hence Brian's answer of "shunning" is spot on.

relevant article

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How can you tell that I am turning a blind eye to them? Is the fact alone that I criticise Muslims evidence that I turn a blind eye to what non-Muslims do? This sounds like a well practiced line that you use like a hammer, and every debate is a nail.

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It doesn't take all Muslims to be a threat to freedom and democracy. It's as if you think it is more important to defend the minority of Muslims who oppose Shariah law from being indirectly criticised than it is to stand up for freedom and democracy. Would you defend Nazis in the same way if not all of them wanted to slaughter Jews?

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That's what Islam is. Abu even builds his definition of Islam around it.

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Because there aren't any Christians on my forum promoting raping and pillaging. And I don't think Joseph Koney gives a stuff what I say here (or the conquistadors for that matter). In fact, before I started talking to Muslims about islam I sounded pretty much identical to you.

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Would you mind quoting the relevant part of the wiki? Or is this just another case of your imagination taking over?

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Are you seriously disagreeing with me over whether it counts as the "next" question?

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What makes you think that? You still haven't explained how I am supposed to balance out any criticism of Muslims with criticisms of Christians so as not to be labelled a bigot by you. What is the appropriate number of Christian criticisms per Muslim criticism? And how to I avoid being labelled a bigot on behalf of some other ideology? Or is it only Christianity that I need to balance?

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I have told you where my views come from several times already. You really should try responding to what I actually say rather than inventing an imaginary freediver to debate with. Do you turn every critic of Islam into the same imaginary person?

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I gave them a fair go. I gave them a chance to explain themselves. I accepted their explanations. The one thing I do not have to do is remain silent about their desire to dismantle freedom and democracy.

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Brian, this will be a lot easier if you refrain from making things up as you go along. There are plenty of things I have actually said that you could respond to.