Australian Politics Forum - Most Muslims Want Sharia Law

Baronvonrort

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #75 - May 11^th, 2013 at 2:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:15pm:

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 1:59pm:

Gandalf, are you arguing that Muhammed wasn't a pedophile because he had lots of other wives and sex slaves?

I'm arguing he wasn't a pedophile because there's not a damn piece of evidence suggesting he was. Were, for example, any of his wives or alleged sex slaves pre-pubescent when he had sex with them? Is there any accounts which detail Muhammad's sexual lust for pre-pubescent children?

Brian Ross wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 1:56pm:

Gandalf, you're falling into the same trap as those who claim he was a paedophile - you cannot judge the morals of yesteryear by the morals of today.

No genuine muslim can ever adhere to this logic - and I'm no exception. If we are to believe that the prophet was a man for all humanity and all times, then clearly such rationalising about "you cannot judge him by todays standards" cannot apply.

Thus I will not attempt to explain away his alleged bloodlust and sexual perversity - I will vigorously dismiss it for what it is - baseless slander.

Do you believe Mohammad was a man for all times Gandalf or are parts of his meesage like child brides not relevant today?

Mo was pedo
Before Mohammad invented Islam his first wife Khadija was in her 40's and he was about 25 when they married.
They were married for over 20 years until she died and during this time he took no other wives.
Mohammad's first wife was a cougar who was over 20 years older than he was, she lived into her 60's which shows younger men married older women and people did not die as young as Islamic apologists claim.

When Mohammad became a man representing his imaginary friend in the sky called Allah,he had a wet dream or was that a revelation from Allah that he would marry Aisha the daughter of his neighbor and the first person to convert to Islam called Abu Bakr.
There is no evidence of Mohammad porking younger girls before he invented his religion he was married to a cougar for over 20 years.

Quote:

Narrated by Aisha ( Mohammads favourite wife, i guess the others were not young enough.)

The Prophet married her when she was 6 years old and he consummated his marriage when she was 9 years old,and then she remained with him for 9 years (ie till his death)
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/67/69

If you stick up for Islam then you have to stick up for child brides, if Mohammad did it then it is halal for muslims.
Child brides are rampant in the Islamic world yet those hypocrites (munfiq for Gandalf)who are so keen to defend Islam say nothing about this despicable practice.
Quote:

A Saudi judge has refused for a second time to annul a marriage between an 8 year old girl and a 47 year old man
www.edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/12/saudi.child.marriage/

If you believe marrying a child is wrong then Mohammad is not a not your guide for morality.

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freediver

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #76 - May 11^th, 2013 at 3:05pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:36pm:

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:22pm:

Why do you say "alleged" to describe his sex slaves?

Because he had no sex slaves.

Now after you've proven to me that the prophet was a pedophile, then perhaps you can move on to proving that he has sex slaves. You've got a bit of work to do FD.

Was Rayhana bint Zayd ibn Amr a sex slave?

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Brian Ross

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #77 - May 11^th, 2013 at 3:06pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 1:59pm:

Gandalf, are you arguing that Muhammed wasn't a pedophile because he had lots of other wives and sex slaves?

Quote:

Arranged marriages for dynastic purposes were quite common and remain common amongst the Royal houses of Europe and of course, in Hindu culture in India.

Brian can you explain why this is relevant to the example of Muhammed?

To show that Arabic culture wasn't all that unique as you'd seem to have us believe, FD?

If it occurred and is still occuring elsewhere in the world, how can you condemn it as reprehensible, except by attempting to claim that modern Western values have always been the norm? Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #78 - May 11^th, 2013 at 3:13pm

Baronvonrort wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:15pm:

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 1:59pm:

Gandalf, are you arguing that Muhammed wasn't a pedophile because he had lots of other wives and sex slaves?

I'm arguing he wasn't a pedophile because there's not a damn piece of evidence suggesting he was. Were, for example, any of his wives or alleged sex slaves pre-pubescent when he had sex with them? Is there any accounts which detail Muhammad's sexual lust for pre-pubescent children?

Brian Ross wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 1:56pm:

Gandalf, you're falling into the same trap as those who claim he was a paedophile - you cannot judge the morals of yesteryear by the morals of today.

No genuine muslim can ever adhere to this logic - and I'm no exception. If we are to believe that the prophet was a man for all humanity and all times, then clearly such rationalising about "you cannot judge him by todays standards" cannot apply.

Thus I will not attempt to explain away his alleged bloodlust and sexual perversity - I will vigorously dismiss it for what it is - baseless slander.

Do you believe Mohammad was a man for all times Gandalf or are parts of his meesage like child brides not relevant today?

Mo was pedo
Before Mohammad invented Islam his first wife Khadija was in her 40's and he was about 25 when they married.
They were married for over 20 years until she died and during this time he took no other wives.
Mohammad's first wife was a cougar who was over 20 years older than he was, she lived into her 60's which shows younger men married older women and people did not die as young as Islamic apologists claim.

Wow, haven't seen such erronous thinking in a long, long time.

The reality was, life expectancy was short in Arabic society at that time, with the average being about 40. You do know how averages are calculated or are you as innumerate as you are historically ignorant?

If you survived childhood, generally you had a good chance to survive to forty. If you survived to forty, there was a chance you'd survive to sixty. If you reached sixty, you might survive to eighty.

If you were female and older, generally you need a young male as both protector and of course, a front for your business. Older women marrying younger men was no more unusual than older men marrying younger women. Roll Eyes

As I've pointed out, dynastic marriage arrangements was and is a common practice in many societies. Why keep singling Muhammad out as something unique for doing what was common in Arabic society at the time? Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #79 - May 11^th, 2013 at 3:18pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 3:05pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:36pm:

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:22pm:

Why do you say "alleged" to describe his sex slaves?

Because he had no sex slaves.

Now after you've proven to me that the prophet was a pedophile, then perhaps you can move on to proving that he has sex slaves. You've got a bit of work to do FD.

Was Rayhana bint Zayd ibn Amr a sex slave?

Depends upon whom you read and want to believe, FD.

Any doubt possible in your view of Islamic history? Your sources are of course all impeccable and hold absolute truth... Roll Eyes

Quote:

Rayhāna bint Zayd ibn ʿAmr (Arabic: ريحانة بنت زيد بن عمرو‎) was a Jewish woman from the Banu Qurayza tribe. Her relationship with Muhammad is disputed[citation needed].

Rayhana was originally a member of the Banu Nadir tribe who married a man from the Banu Qurayza. After the Banu Qurayza were defeated by the armies of Muhammad in the Siege of the Banu Qurayza neighborhood, Rayhana was among those enslaved, while the men were executed for treason.

According to Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad took her as a maiden slave and offered her the status of becoming his wife if she accepted Islam, but she refused. According to his account, even though Rayhana is said to have later converted to Islam, she died as a slave.[1] According to Marco Schöller, Rayhana either became the Prophet's concubine or, was married to him and later divorced.[2]

Ibn Sa'd writes and quotes Waqidi that she was manumitted but later married by Muhammad.[3] According to Al-Halabi, Muhammad married and appointed dowry for her. It is further narrated that, upon marriage, she refused to wear the hijab, causing a rift between her and Muhammad. The couple later reconciled. She died young, shortly after Muhammad's hajj and was buried in Jannat al-Baqi cemetery.[4] Ibn Hajar quotes a description of the house that Muhammad gave to Rayhana after their marriage from Muhammad Ibn al-Hassam's History of Medina.[5]

In another version, Hafiz Ibn Minda writes that Muhammad set Rayhana free, and she went back to live with her own people. This version is also supported as the most likely by 19th-century Muslim scholar, Shibli Nomani.[6]

Not much is known about Rayhana; she died a year before Muhammad.

[Source]

Note the use of the words "disputed" and the use of differing sources all with different versions of the same story?

Most interesting though, is the words, "Not much is known about Rayhana". Which suggests of course that anything written about her is doubtful.

You will of course entertain that possibility in your effort to accord balance to your debate? Or will you? Roll Eyes

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freediver

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #80 - May 11^th, 2013 at 3:25pm

Quote:

To show that Arabic culture wasn't all that unique as you'd seem to have us believe, FD?

When have I ever come even close to arguing this?

Quote:

If it occurred and is still occuring elsewhere in the world, how can you condemn it as reprehensible, except by attempting to claim that modern Western values have always been the norm?

Are you saying you would not condemn slavery, rape etc on the grounds that Muhammed permitted it 1400 years ago and it was normal back then?

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Brian Ross

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #81 - May 11^th, 2013 at 3:36pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 3:25pm:

Quote:

To show that Arabic culture wasn't all that unique as you'd seem to have us believe, FD?

When have I ever come even close to arguing this?

You imply it in your unique condemnation of Mohammed, FD.

You keep seem to be singling the founder of Islam out for special attention, yet as I've pointed out, what he did wasn't unique. It was common practice and common practice until recently. A perfect example of a dynastic marriage in modern times was that of Prince Charles to Diana Spencer. He didn't love her, he married her for ability to breed the next generation of Royals and of course her connections.

Quote:

Quote:

If it occurred and is still occurring elsewhere in the world, how can you condemn it as reprehensible, except by attempting to claim that modern Western values have always been the norm?

Are you saying you would not condemn slavery, rape etc on the grounds that Muhammed permitted it 1400 years ago and it was normal back then?

Condemn them now? Certainly. Condemn them 1400 years ago? Much more difficult because of course, it was considered normal. Remember the quote from E.B. Hartley I keep using? "The past is a different country. They do things differently there." What occurred 1400 years ago should be judged against the norms and mores of the day, FD, not by the standards of today, which is what you're attempting to do.

Remember, FD - balance. Something sadly lacking in your attacks on Islam and Muslims. Roll Eyes

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moses

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #82 - May 11^th, 2013 at 4:06pm

Quote:

Condemn them now? Certainly.

&

balance

Well I'd say that is exactly what is happening around the globe today.

islam / muslims are being decried by civilised people everywhere, because of the innumerable acts of savagery carried out by muslims, in the name of allah / islam.

These barbaric muslims can and do justify their atrocities with islamic theology.

If some muslims want to claim no affiliation with the degenerates, why don't they tackle the issue of violence, hatred and bigotry in the commands from allah, the teachings of muhammad and the verses in the qur'an?

Now with regards to *balance* should the criticism be in proportion to the number of attacks carried out by the various extremists?

Or is that too balanced, as the muslim unfavourable judgment would be about a thousand times more than anyone else?

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freediver

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #83 - May 11^th, 2013 at 4:34pm

Quote:

You imply it in your unique condemnation of Mohammed, FD.

I have probably told you this before Brian. You really should stick to what I actually say.

Quote:

You keep seem to be singling the founder of Islam out for special attention

This is the Islam board Brian. If we were discussing Christianity, would you have a go at people for talking about Jesus all the time?

Quote:

yet as I've pointed out, what he did wasn't unique. It was common practice and common practice until recently. A perfect example of a dynastic marriage in modern times was that of Prince Charles to Diana Spencer.

Muhammed did not marry a 6 year old girl to build a dynasty. It was his neighbour - the daughter of the first convert to Islam. Think about it. The very first conversion to Islam, and the outcome was the marriage of a 6 year old girl off to the founder of the religion.

Quote:

Condemn them now? Certainly.

So why did you say this?

Quote:

If it occurred and is still occurring elsewhere in the world, how can you condemn it as reprehensible

Quote:

What occurred 1400 years ago should be judged against the norms and mores of the day, FD, not by the standards of today, which is what you're attempting to do.

According to Muslims themselves, it should be, because Muslims consider them to be timeless. Muslims think those same standards should apply today and forever. Even Gandalf, who is probably the most progressive Muslim we have ever had here, pointed this out to you.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #84 - May 11^th, 2013 at 4:39pm

Baronvonrort wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Mo was pedo

You have provided no shred of proof to support this claim. That shouldn't surprise me though.

You did mention the hadith that states Ayesha was 6 years old when betrothed to Mohammad, and 9 years old when the marriage was consumated. FIrstly it needs to be pointed out that these ages are disputed amongst historians. But even if we accepted them, is being betrothed to a girl at age 6 then consumating that marriage at age 9 proof of pedophilia? Lets look again at the definition:

As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in persons 16 years of age or older typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest toward prepubescent children (generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnosis criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13)

Do we know Ayeesha was prepubescent at the time of consummation? No. While unusual, puberty has been known to be reached by 9 years old. But the biggest giveaway for me is - if they were betrothed when she was 6, and if Mohammad was the vicious kiddy-fiddler you claim, why did he wait a whole three years before getting in bed with her? What happened after that three years? Puberty perhaps? In any case, recent historical evidence suggests she was more like 15, not 9. In any case, citing this as evidence of "a primary or exclusive sexual interest toward prepubescent children" is simply laughable.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #85 - May 11^th, 2013 at 4:47pm

Quote:

In any case, recent historical evidence suggests she was more like 15, not 9.

What evidence? Are you suggesting Muslims fabricated this story? I can understand them pushing up the age at which he had sex with the little girl to make Islam seem more morally upright, but it makes no sense for them to push it down.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #86 - May 11^th, 2013 at 5:12pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 3:05pm:

Was Rayhana bint Zayd ibn Amr a sex slave?

No. Perhaps you have some proof that she was? By the way, has this anything to do with proving that Mohammad was a pedophile? Don't lose focus FD.

You two really are making a complete mockery of yourselves running with this nonsense. I suggest you both bail out now.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #87 - May 11^th, 2013 at 5:16pm

Brian Ross wrote:
Quote:

dynastic marriage arrangements was and is a common practice in many societies. Why keep singling Muhammad out as something unique for doing what was common in Arabic society at the time?

gandalf in response to Baronvonrort wrote:
Quote:

You have provided no shred of proof to support this claim

There is plenty of proof to discount both of you:

from the (inthenameofallah.org/Muhammad%20the%20Child%20Molester.html) site

There are plenty of others that tell us the same thing.

Quote:

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.18 Narrated by Ursa

The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

For those who speak Arabic, this will read as:

" Innama ana akhooka" and Muhammad replied " Anta akhi fi deen Allah wa kitabihi, wa hiya li halal"

Abu Bakr was so shocked at Muhammad's proposal to marry the child Aisha of six years that he told him 'but I am your brother' meaning that it should not be permissible as if it were incestuous.

This word 'but' brings out the true disbelief of Abu Bakr regarding the request, which of course turrned out to be an unchallengeable demand. Muhammad after all was of a similar age to Abu Bakr.

Unfortunately, Abu Bakr, like all the other gullible, superstitious and frightened followers of Muhammad, actually believed that he was the messenger of allah and was totally petrified to go against his wishes or demands.

Even a pagan like Abu Bakr found it unseemly if not offensive to expect and allow a child girl to have sexual intercourse with a man, especially one who was already over fifty years old.

His shock alone is evidence that what Muhammad was demanding was against the social norms of even the pagans.

Muhammad had his fantasies and was able to fulfil each and every one of them by introducing an alleged 'divine' verse justifying each and every one of his requirements.

In this manner, with 'allah' always and very conveniently at his beck and call, Muhammad was able to justify all his actions, deeds, misdeeds and desires without any mere mortals being able to challenge the 'messenger of allah'

Despite all the lies and bastardising of words muslims and their apologists are confronted by historical evidence every time, no wonder they want to rewrite history and review the hadith.

The truth is:it was not a dynastic marriage it was pure pedophilia on the part of muhammad;

Abu Bakr was not in favour of the pedophilia but bowed to muhammad's supposed *holy* status

Quote:

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 9.140 Narrated byAisha

Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "

The truth is muhammad sexually fantasied about Aisha even when she was a BABY.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law
Reply #88 - May 11^th, 2013 at 5:17pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 4:47pm:

What evidence?

Quote:

“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.”

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

Either way, it is still woefully inadequate evidence that he was a pedophile.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49458 At my desk.	Re: Most Muslims Want Sharia Law Reply #89 - May 11^th, 2013 at 5:29pm Are you suggesting that Muslims accidentally came to believe that their prophet married a six year old girl, when she was in fact the ripe old age of ten?
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