Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #105 - May 9^th, 2013 at 10:56pm

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

What defines the community? Islam. What defines Islam? The texts. Are you seriously suggesting that the koran does not count as representative of mainstream Islam, but if I do find an islamic body that you approve of quoting from the Koran, then it does count?

The problem is we have different interpretations of what islamic doctrine says. Surely you can see the logical fallacy that is inherent here? ie you say - the koran is militant and intolreant, the sunnah is militant and intolerant - therefore by following these, mainstream muslims are being militant and intolerant. I on the other hand will argue that the quran is tolerant and peace loving - thus you can't really trap me with the logic that by following the quran, muslims are being evil can you?

I thought I made this point clear enough in the OP - why this discussion cannot be about what islamic doctrine says. The only sensible way to discuss this is to demonstrate what muslims themselves believe and do. Do most muslims really believe that the quran, hadith and sunna is all about implementing the "right" kind of violence - just because you believe thats what the quran,hadit and sunna say? No. That is a logical fallacy. You need to demonstrate that mainstream muslims believe and promote this militant version of islamic doctrine - because the only evidence that has been presented in this thread is of mainstream muslims expressing a disagreement with this view.

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #106 - May 9^th, 2013 at 11:12pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:56pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

What defines the community? Islam. What defines Islam? The texts. Are you seriously suggesting that the koran does not count as representative of mainstream Islam, but if I do find an islamic body that you approve of quoting from the Koran, then it does count?

The problem is we have different interpretations of what islamic doctrine says. Surely you can see the logical fallacy that is inherent here? ie you say - the koran is militant and intolreant, the sunnah is militant and intolerant - therefore by following these, mainstream muslims are being militant and intolerant. I on the other hand will argue that the quran is tolerant and peace loving - thus you can't really trap me with the logic that by following the quran, muslims are being evil can you?

I thought I made this point clear enough in the OP - why this discussion cannot be about what islamic doctrine says.

The only sensible way to discuss this is to demonstrate what muslims themselves believe and do.

Do most muslims really believe that the quran, hadith and sunna is all about implementing the "right" kind of violence - just because you believe thats what the quran,hadit and sunna say? No. That is a logical fallacy. You need to demonstrate that mainstream muslims believe and promote this militant version of islamic doctrine - because the only evidence that has been presented in this thread is of mainstream muslims expressing a disagreement with this view.

Most moslems believe that;

"Allah is my god, and Mohammed is his prophet."

[i.e. the Allah, and the Mohammed, as described in the Koran and Hadith]

And what most moslems do,
.......is to deceive the non-moslems [by intentionally misrepresenting ISLAM to them, by insisting that ISLAM is a virtuous philosophy].

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #107 - May 9^th, 2013 at 11:56pm

Yadda wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 11:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:56pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

What defines the community? Islam. What defines Islam? The texts. Are you seriously suggesting that the koran does not count as representative of mainstream Islam, but if I do find an islamic body that you approve of quoting from the Koran, then it does count?

The problem is we have different interpretations of what islamic doctrine says. Surely you can see the logical fallacy that is inherent here? ie you say - the koran is militant and intolreant, the sunnah is militant and intolerant - therefore by following these, mainstream muslims are being militant and intolerant. I on the other hand will argue that the quran is tolerant and peace loving - thus you can't really trap me with the logic that by following the quran, muslims are being evil can you?

I thought I made this point clear enough in the OP - why this discussion cannot be about what islamic doctrine says.

The only sensible way to discuss this is to demonstrate what muslims themselves believe and do.

Do most muslims really believe that the quran, hadith and sunna is all about implementing the "right" kind of violence - just because you believe thats what the quran,hadit and sunna say? No. That is a logical fallacy. You need to demonstrate that mainstream muslims believe and promote this militant version of islamic doctrine - because the only evidence that has been presented in this thread is of mainstream muslims expressing a disagreement with this view.

Most moslems believe that;

"Allah is my god, and Mohammed is his prophet."

[i.e. the Allah, and the Mohammed, as described in the Koran and Hadith]

And what most moslems do,
.......is to deceive the non-moslems [by intentionally misrepresenting ISLAM to them, by insisting that ISLAM is a virtuous philosophy].

I'd be very interested to see your proof of that, Yadda. Roll Eyes

You know, some of the more vicious anti-Semitic material promulgated by neo-Nazis makes the same claim about the Jews.

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #108 - May 10^th, 2013 at 12:30pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 11:56pm:

Yadda wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 11:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:56pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

What defines the community? Islam. What defines Islam? The texts. Are you seriously suggesting that the koran does not count as representative of mainstream Islam, but if I do find an islamic body that you approve of quoting from the Koran, then it does count?

The problem is we have different interpretations of what islamic doctrine says. Surely you can see the logical fallacy that is inherent here? ie you say - the koran is militant and intolreant, the sunnah is militant and intolerant - therefore by following these, mainstream muslims are being militant and intolerant. I on the other hand will argue that the quran is tolerant and peace loving - thus you can't really trap me with the logic that by following the quran, muslims are being evil can you?

I thought I made this point clear enough in the OP - why this discussion cannot be about what islamic doctrine says.

The only sensible way to discuss this is to demonstrate what muslims themselves believe and do.

Do most muslims really believe that the quran, hadith and sunna is all about implementing the "right" kind of violence - just because you believe thats what the quran,hadit and sunna say? No. That is a logical fallacy. You need to demonstrate that mainstream muslims believe and promote this militant version of islamic doctrine - because the only evidence that has been presented in this thread is of mainstream muslims expressing a disagreement with this view.

Most moslems believe that;

"Allah is my god, and Mohammed is his prophet."

[i.e. the Allah, and the Mohammed, as described in the Koran and Hadith]

And what most moslems do,
.......is to deceive the non-moslems [by intentionally misrepresenting ISLAM to them, by insisting that ISLAM is a virtuous philosophy].

I'd be very interested to see your proof of that, Yadda.

You know, some of the more vicious anti-Semitic material promulgated by neo-Nazis makes the same claim about the Jews.

Brian Ross,

#1,

Google;

Shahadah

The Shahadah is the ISLAMIC declaration of faith [so as to become a moslem].

The Shahadah goes;

Quote:

“There is no god but Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”

Longer versions are common, especially those beginning with “I bear witness” or “I testify,” e.g.:

“I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012/10/what-is-shahada.html

#2,

And on the issue of ISLAMIC deceit [as 'an article of faith'];

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Google;

taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;

we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

How Taqiyya Alters Islams Rules of War

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

+++

Please Brian Ross,

There is no need to pretend that you are shocked by these revelations. Tongue

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #109 - May 10^th, 2013 at 12:44pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:56pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

What defines the community? Islam. What defines Islam? The texts. Are you seriously suggesting that the koran does not count as representative of mainstream Islam, but if I do find an islamic body that you approve of quoting from the Koran, then it does count?

The problem is we have different interpretations of what islamic doctrine says. Surely you can see the logical fallacy that is inherent here? ie you say - the koran is militant and intolreant, the sunnah is militant and intolerant - therefore by following these, mainstream muslims are being militant and intolerant. I on the other hand will argue that the quran is tolerant and peace loving - thus you can't really trap me with the logic that by following the quran, muslims are being evil can you?

I thought I made this point clear enough in the OP - why this discussion cannot be about what islamic doctrine says. The only sensible way to discuss this is to demonstrate what muslims themselves believe and do. Do most muslims really believe that the quran, hadith and sunna is all about implementing the "right" kind of violence - just because you believe thats what the quran,hadit and sunna say? No. That is a logical fallacy. You need to demonstrate that mainstream muslims believe and promote this militant version of islamic doctrine - because the only evidence that has been presented in this thread is of mainstream muslims expressing a disagreement with this view.

Abu disagrees with that view too, but still supported violence. I think the only way to move forward is to get more specific. Pick a particular aspect of Shariah law that normal people find objectionable, and show that the majority of Muslims also disagree that it is part of Shariah law. I basically did the same thing to you, and on many of the key points it boiled down to you saying you do not know. Abu said he did know and he gave doctrinal justifications on many occasions. On many occasions where you did give a strong view, it did not actually contradict Abu's.

I am not going to do it for you. I am happy to take Abu et al's word for it.

Quote:

You know, some of the more vicious anti-Semitic material promulgated by neo-Nazis makes the same claim about the Jews.

In many cases it was based on a fictional book (the protocols). In Islam's case, the book really does exist and Muslims really do believe it.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #110 - May 10^th, 2013 at 12:49pm

Yadda - that quote you attribute to the wiki article is NOT contained in the article you linked. Where does it come from?

What the article actually says:

sunni view:
Quote:

In the Sunni view, denying your faith under duress is "only at most permitted and not under all circumstances obligatory".[4] Al-Tabari comments on sura XVI, verse 108 (Tafsir, Bulak 1323, xxiv, 122): "If any one is compelled and professes unbelief with his tongue, while his heart contradicts him, in order to escape his enemies, no blame falls on him, because God takes his servants as their hearts believe." This verse was revealed after Ammar Yasir was forced by the idolaters of Mecca to recant his faith and denounce the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Al-Tabari explains that concealing one's faith is only justified if the person is in mortal danger, and even then martyrdom is considered a noble alternative. If threatened, it would be preferable for a Muslim to migrate to a more peaceful place where a person may practice their faith openly, "since God's earth is wide."[4]

No term such as taqiyya is used in Sunni jurisprudence. Protecting one's belief during extreme or exigent circumstances is called idtirar (إضطرار), which translates to "being forced" or "being coerced", and this word is not specific to concealing the faith. Sunnis believe that it is allowed to deny faith under compulsion, threat, or fear of injury, as long as the heart remains firm in faith

Shi'a view:
Quote:

Religious dissimulation or Taqiyya while maintaining mental reservation is considered lawful in Shi'ism "in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby". Shi'is lived mostly as a minority among a frequently-hostile Sunni majority- until the rise of Safavid dynasty. This condition made taqiyya doctrine important to Shi'is

Nowhere does *YOUR* link mention anything about the need to lie and cheat "as a means to achieve objectives" - the only thing it mentions - in both the sunni and shia view - is as a last resort when lives are in danger.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #111 - May 10^th, 2013 at 12:50pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 11:56pm:

Yadda wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 11:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:56pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

What defines the community? Islam. What defines Islam? The texts. Are you seriously suggesting that the koran does not count as representative of mainstream Islam, but if I do find an islamic body that you approve of quoting from the Koran, then it does count?

The problem is we have different interpretations of what islamic doctrine says. Surely you can see the logical fallacy that is inherent here? ie you say - the koran is militant and intolreant, the sunnah is militant and intolerant - therefore by following these, mainstream muslims are being militant and intolerant. I on the other hand will argue that the quran is tolerant and peace loving - thus you can't really trap me with the logic that by following the quran, muslims are being evil can you?

I thought I made this point clear enough in the OP - why this discussion cannot be about what islamic doctrine says.

The only sensible way to discuss this is to demonstrate what muslims themselves believe and do.

Do most muslims really believe that the quran, hadith and sunna is all about implementing the "right" kind of violence - just because you believe thats what the quran,hadit and sunna say? No. That is a logical fallacy. You need to demonstrate that mainstream muslims believe and promote this militant version of islamic doctrine - because the only evidence that has been presented in this thread is of mainstream muslims expressing a disagreement with this view.

Most moslems believe that;

"Allah is my god, and Mohammed is his prophet."

[i.e. the Allah, and the Mohammed, as described in the Koran and Hadith]

And what most moslems do,
.......is to deceive the non-moslems [by intentionally misrepresenting ISLAM to them, by insisting that ISLAM is a virtuous philosophy].

I'd be very interested to see your proof of that, Yadda.

You know, some of the more vicious anti-Semitic material promulgated by neo-Nazis makes the same claim about the Jews.

Brian Ross,

If you are querying as to how i know, that [most] moslems choose to deceive 'disbelievers'....

'The cause of Allah' is to seek to progress the superiority ISLAM/moslems in the world, which is an obligation for EVERY moslem.

The practice of deceit [against the disbelievers] in this endeavour, by moslems, is a declared article of faith.

It is not difficult to find examples of moslems demonstrating their 'devotion' to ISLAM in this practice of falsehood and deceit.

+++

And the exhortations to moslems, to 'the Cause of Allah' within ISLAMIC texts are prolific....

"Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah, He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand.
Koran 47.33-35

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.026

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #112 - May 10^th, 2013 at 1:00pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 12:49pm:

Yadda - that quote you attribute to the wiki article is NOT contained in the article you linked. Where does it come from?

What the article actually says:

[.....snip, snip, snip, snip, snip, snip,........snip]

Nowhere does *YOUR* link mention anything about the need to lie and cheat "as a means to achieve objectives" - the only thing it mentions - in both the sunni and shia view - is as a last resort when lives are in danger.

gandalf,

This edit;

Quote:

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

....was at one time, a part of that wiki page. [i saved that page to my HD some years ago, and imo, the original contents of that wiki page are still valid]

p.s.
I can't image why anyone would edit it out. Tongue

Google;

"Speaking is a means to achieve objectives", taqiyya

99k+ hits

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #113 - May 10^th, 2013 at 1:03pm

freediver wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 12:44pm:

Abu disagrees with that view too, but still supported violence.

I don't care. I think in future I'll ignore your claims about anything Abu allegedly said until you provide the actual quotes. I'm not saying you are wrong - but given your track record (camel urine claims), you can forgive me for being sceptical.

freediver wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 12:44pm:

Pick a particular aspect of Shariah law that normal people find objectionable, and show that the majority of Muslims also disagree that it is part of Shariah law.

Well you can take the numerous PEW surveys on muslim attitudes, and look at things like coexistence with non-muslims, freedom of religion, etc as a start. Plus all those statements, declarations, fatwas etc given by mainstream muslim leaders promoting the peaceful, tolerant version of islam. Feel free to look them up yourself. I would also add the study I cited in the OP from British intelligence stating that involvement with mainstream islamic organisations reduces the chance of becoming a terrorist.

But you seem to be missing the point - yet again. The whole point of this exercise is to prove your incessant claims (and its not just you) that mainstream islam promotes violence and extremism - and that being a terrorist comes from following the mainstream version of islam (in direct contradiction of the MI5 study mentioned earlier).

freediver wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 12:44pm:

I am happy to take Abu et al's word for it.

I see - reject every muslim's claims, except one - who just so happens to support your narrow view of what islam's all about.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #114 - May 10^th, 2013 at 7:21pm

Yadda wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 12:30pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 11:56pm:

Yadda wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 11:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:56pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

What defines the community? Islam. What defines Islam? The texts. Are you seriously suggesting that the koran does not count as representative of mainstream Islam, but if I do find an islamic body that you approve of quoting from the Koran, then it does count?

The problem is we have different interpretations of what islamic doctrine says. Surely you can see the logical fallacy that is inherent here? ie you say - the koran is militant and intolreant, the sunnah is militant and intolerant - therefore by following these, mainstream muslims are being militant and intolerant. I on the other hand will argue that the quran is tolerant and peace loving - thus you can't really trap me with the logic that by following the quran, muslims are being evil can you?

I thought I made this point clear enough in the OP - why this discussion cannot be about what islamic doctrine says.

The only sensible way to discuss this is to demonstrate what muslims themselves believe and do.

Do most muslims really believe that the quran, hadith and sunna is all about implementing the "right" kind of violence - just because you believe thats what the quran,hadit and sunna say? No. That is a logical fallacy. You need to demonstrate that mainstream muslims believe and promote this militant version of islamic doctrine - because the only evidence that has been presented in this thread is of mainstream muslims expressing a disagreement with this view.

Most moslems believe that;

"Allah is my god, and Mohammed is his prophet."

[i.e. the Allah, and the Mohammed, as described in the Koran and Hadith]

And what most moslems do,
.......is to deceive the non-moslems [by intentionally misrepresenting ISLAM to them, by insisting that ISLAM is a virtuous philosophy].

I'd be very interested to see your proof of that, Yadda.

You know, some of the more vicious anti-Semitic material promulgated by neo-Nazis makes the same claim about the Jews.

Brian Ross,

#1,

Google;

Shahadah

The Shahadah is the ISLAMIC declaration of faith [so as to become a moslem].

The Shahadah goes;

Quote:

“There is no god but Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”

Longer versions are common, especially those beginning with “I bear witness” or “I testify,” e.g.:

“I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012/10/what-is-shahada.html

#2,

And on the issue of ISLAMIC deceit [as 'an article of faith'];

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Google;

taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;

we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

How Taqiyya Alters Islams Rules of War

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

+++

Please Brian Ross,

There is no need to pretend that you are shocked by these revelations. Tongue

I'm not shocked. I asked though, for proof that the (if I can find it amongst your crayon scrawls),

Quote:

And what most moslems do,
.......is to deceive the non-moslems [by intentionally misrepresenting ISLAM to them, by insisting that ISLAM is a virtuous philosophy].

You haven't presented proof, merely opinion.

Oh, and on the issue of Taqiyya, that is no different from what all persecuted groups have done when faced with persecution. Jews in Spain used to eat pork in order to lie to their Christian persecutors. Christians used to denounce their religion and renounce it's outward trappings when persecuted by Communist governments.

Taqiyya is also AIUI it governed by some fairly strict rules in its use amongst mainstream sects of Islam. That the Takfiri Islamists have perverted it is not usual as they have perverted many things to justify their interpretation of their religion. That you assume it seems that it is widespread shows a very poor understanding of Islam and Muslims, Yadda. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #115 - May 10^th, 2013 at 7:57pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 7:21pm:

Quote:

And what most moslems do,
.......is to deceive the non-moslems [by intentionally misrepresenting ISLAM to them....].

You haven't presented proof, merely opinion.

Brian_Ross,

I have presented my opinions and reasoning [and proof] - about the extent of, and the reasons for moslem deceit, towards non-moslems.

And you have presented your opinions and reasoning.

I am happy for those people who view our posts on OzPol, to view what we have both presented.

And to judge for themselves who's opinion and reasoning, has the most merit.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #116 - May 10^th, 2013 at 8:32pm

Yadda, you have presented opinion, not proof.

Every Muslim I've known has been honest, hard working and usually quite nice people. I was willing, when in the Army, to trust my life to my best mate who was a Muslim. I'd have no qualms doing so again. I work everyday with Muslims. I have taught Muslims and I've studied with Muslims. All were good people. Nothing unusual about them, none were firebrands. None were any different to the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists I've known. They just worshipped a different god, that's all.

I wonder how many Muslims you've known? Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #117 - May 10^th, 2013 at 9:02pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 8:32pm:

Yadda, you have presented opinion, not proof.

Every Muslim I've known has been honest, hard working and usually quite nice people. I was willing, when in the Army, to trust my life to my best mate who was a Muslim. I'd have no qualms doing so again. I work everyday with Muslims. I have taught Muslims and I've studied with Muslims. All were good people. Nothing unusual about them, none were firebrands. None were any different to the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists I've known. They just worshipped a different god, that's all.

I wonder how many Muslims you've known? Roll Eyes

Have you met any of the Muslims who hacked people's heads off on youtube? Any Muslims who have gone to be suicide bombers? Any Muslims who have been yelling for the murder of Salman Rushdie? Any Muslims who have agitated for sharia law across the West? Any Muslims who have told you that you are an infidel dog? Any Muslims who have been convicted for plotting bloody mayhem?
If yes, what did you say to them?
If no - what do you make of them and of the supposed moderates (your neighbours) who let Islam be defined by maniacs? And what do you say to the people who have been killed, maimed and traumatised by such Muslims?

That your particular neighbour isn't like that so none of that mayhem in the name of Islam has 'nuffin' do wiv Islam'??

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #118 - May 10^th, 2013 at 11:09pm

Soren wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 9:02pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 8:32pm:

Yadda, you have presented opinion, not proof.

Every Muslim I've known has been honest, hard working and usually quite nice people. I was willing, when in the Army, to trust my life to my best mate who was a Muslim. I'd have no qualms doing so again. I work everyday with Muslims. I have taught Muslims and I've studied with Muslims. All were good people. Nothing unusual about them, none were firebrands. None were any different to the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists I've known. They just worshipped a different god, that's all.

I wonder how many Muslims you've known? Roll Eyes

Have you met any of the Muslims who hacked people's heads off on youtube? Any Muslims who have gone to be suicide bombers? Any Muslims who have been yelling for the murder of Salman Rushdie? Any Muslims who have agitated for sharia law across the West? Any Muslims who have told you that you are an infidel dog? Any Muslims who have been convicted for plotting bloody mayhem?
If yes, what did you say to them?
If no - what do you make of them and of the supposed moderates (your neighbours) who let Islam be defined by maniacs? And what do you say to the people who have been killed, maimed and traumatised by such Muslims?

That your particular neighbour isn't like that so none of that mayhem in the name of Islam has 'nuffin' do wiv Islam'??

How many have you met, Soren amongst your 140+2?

I've met none. I've never claimed to. I don't assume that all Muslims are the same. I know there are bad Muslims and good Muslims but I don't assume merely because they are Muslim they are ALL bad. Some here do though. You amongst them.

Do you accept that there are many good Muslims? That they outnumber the bad ones whom do evil things?

If you don't then that prejudice is the basis of bigotry, Soren. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40702 Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #119 - May 10^th, 2013 at 11:39pm how many did moh murder ?
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