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Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? (Read 61546 times)
Brian Ross
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #120 - May 10th, 2013 at 11:40pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 10th, 2013 at 11:39pm:
how many did moh murder ?


You have evidence that he personally murdered someone?

Quick, report it to the police!

Oh, wait, that was 1400 years ago.   Roll Eyes
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #121 - May 10th, 2013 at 11:42pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 10th, 2013 at 11:39pm:
how many did moh murder ?


bump
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Brian Ross
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #122 - May 10th, 2013 at 11:43pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 10th, 2013 at 11:42pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 10th, 2013 at 11:39pm:
how many did moh murder ?


bump


Endlessly reporting the question doesn't make it any more valid, Sprintcyclist.  You're merely displaying your prejudice again for all to see.   Roll Eyes
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #123 - May 10th, 2013 at 11:45pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 10th, 2013 at 11:42pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 10th, 2013 at 11:39pm:
how many did moh murder ?


bump

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Brian Ross
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #124 - May 10th, 2013 at 11:46pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 10th, 2013 at 11:45pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 10th, 2013 at 11:42pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 10th, 2013 at 11:39pm:
how many did moh murder ?


bump


Endlessly reporting the question doesn't make it any more valid, Sprintcyclist.  You're merely displaying your prejudice again for all to see.    Roll Eyes
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #125 - May 11th, 2013 at 10:08am
 
Quote:
Nowhere does *YOUR* link mention anything about the need to lie and cheat "as a means to achieve objectives" - the only thing it mentions - in both the sunni and shia view - is as a last resort when lives are in danger.


Abu liked to explain that islam permitted lying in the context of war, and that he believed the west had been at war with the Muslims world for over a century. He also insisted that only Shites allow themselves to lie.

Quote:
I don't care. I think in future I'll ignore your claims about anything Abu allegedly said until you provide the actual quotes. I'm not saying you are wrong - but given your track record (camel urine claims), you can forgive me for being sceptical.


But if I did go to the trouble of providing quotes, you would just dismiss it as the opinion of one random person. So is there any point?

My point is of course that rejecting specific actions of fellow Muslims is not the same as Muslims rejecting violence, oppression, cruelty etc in general or in all contexts.

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Well you can take the numerous PEW surveys on muslim attitudes, and look at things like coexistence with non-muslims, freedom of religion, etc as a start. Plus all those statements, declarations, fatwas etc given by mainstream muslim leaders promoting the peaceful, tolerant version of islam.


Islam has always publicly promoted two versions of itself. It is part of the empire building strategy. The command to put up with non-Muslims outside of the empire does not in any way contradict the commands to oppress non-Muslims within the empire.

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But you seem to be missing the point - yet again. The whole point of this exercise is to prove your incessant claims (and its not just you) that mainstream islam promotes violence and extremism - and that being a terrorist comes from following the mainstream version of islam (in direct contradiction of the MI5 study mentioned earlier).


Then your entire point is a strawman. BTW, the MI5 study does not actually contradict that view, unless you think modern terrorism is the only expression of Islamic violence. Even Abu rejects these particular forms of terrorism.

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I see - reject every muslim's claims, except one - who just so happens to support your narrow view of what islam's all about.


Abu made a good case that he represents mainstream Islam. You have not.

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Every Muslim I've known has been honest, hard working and usually quite nice people.   I was willing, when in the Army, to trust my life to my best mate who was a Muslim.   I'd have no qualms doing so again.  I work everyday with Muslims.  I have taught Muslims and I've studied with Muslims.   All were good people.   Nothing unusual about them, none were firebrands.   None were any different to the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists I've known.  They just worshipped a different god, that's all.


So none of your views are based on talking to Muslims about the political aspects of Islam? Like spot, you claim to have gained your understanding of Islam through some kind of osmotic process?
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #126 - May 11th, 2013 at 10:17am
 
freediver wrote on May 10th, 2013 at 12:44pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 9th, 2013 at 10:56pm:
freediver wrote on May 9th, 2013 at 10:26pm:
What defines the community? Islam. What defines Islam? The texts. Are you seriously suggesting that the koran does not count as representative of mainstream Islam, but if I do find an islamic body that you approve of quoting from the Koran, then it does count?


The problem is we have different interpretations of what islamic doctrine says. Surely you can see the logical fallacy that is inherent here? ie you say - the koran is militant and intolreant, the sunnah is militant and intolerant - therefore by following these, mainstream muslims are being militant and intolerant. I on the other hand will argue that the quran is tolerant and peace loving - thus you can't really trap me with the logic that by following the quran, muslims are being evil can you?

I thought I made this point clear enough in the OP - why this discussion cannot be about what islamic doctrine says. The only sensible way to discuss this is to demonstrate what muslims themselves believe and do. Do most muslims really believe that the quran, hadith and sunna is all about implementing the "right" kind of violence - just because you believe thats what the quran,hadit and sunna say? No. That is a logical fallacy. You need to demonstrate that mainstream muslims believe and promote this militant version of islamic doctrine - because the only evidence that has been presented in this thread is of mainstream muslims expressing a disagreement with this view.


Abu disagrees with that view too, but still supported violence. I think the only way to move forward is to get more specific. Pick a particular aspect of Shariah law that normal people find objectionable, and show that the majority of Muslims also disagree that it is part of Shariah law. I basically did the same thing to you, and on many of the key points it boiled down to you saying you do not know. Abu said he did know and he gave doctrinal justifications on many occasions. On many occasions where you did give a strong view, it did not actually contradict Abu's.

I am not going to do it for you. I am happy to take Abu et al's word for it.


Gandalf, your approach here seems to be about avoiding discussing any of the evil aspects of Islam in particular. Mainstream islam and radicalism are both nebullous concepts and the idea that you could make an evidence based case either way is absurd. That you also rule out using Muhammed, the Koran and Hadeeth as evidence for what mainstream islam teaches just makes it even more absurd.
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #127 - May 11th, 2013 at 10:50am
 
Islam is saturated with contradictions and untruths. In other-words the end justifies the means........ If lies gain the advantage when truth fails, then it is permissible and perfectly justified. Hypocrisy  is a tactical method to succeed as far as Islam is concerned and is morally (I use the term loosely in this case) and perfectly sound........Admission of failure and failings is not a consideration...........  The vast majority of Muslims are dishonest and despicable because that is the way they have been indoctrinated from birth..............over many generations.
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #128 - May 11th, 2013 at 12:21pm
 
freediver wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 10:17am:
That you also rule out using Muhammed, the Koran and Hadeeth as evidence for what mainstream islam teaches just makes it even more absurd.


No, once again your look at this from a flawed premise. Your premise is that because *YOU* believe the quran, hadeeth and sunna are evil and promotes a message of violence and intolerance, therefore by the mere act of following and promoting these texts, muslims are following and promoting a message of violence and intolerance. You are effectively transferring your own interpretation and beliefs into the minds of muslims.

No. It should go without saying that I reject this premise out of hand, and my position is that most muslims reject this premise as well. So no, this is not a doctrinal debate, because your interpretation of islamic law doesn't prove anything about the interpretation - and deeds and practices of the majority of muslims. Especially since the only evidence we have so far is of muslim leaders using the islamic texts to argue a peaceful, tolerant version of islam.

freediver wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 10:08am:
But if I did go to the trouble of providing quotes, you would just dismiss it as the opinion of one random person. So is there any point?


It would be better than nothing. Yes, I don't judge the majority of muslim's beliefs by the say so of a single muslim, but at least if I saw exactly what he said I can do what you should have done all along - and compare that to the views of a wide range of muslim's opinions on forums, blogs, opinion pieces etc etc. Then I will have a better idea of whether his views really are representative.

freediver wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 10:08am:
Islam has always publicly promoted two versions of itself. It is part of the empire building strategy. The command to put up with non-Muslims outside of the empire does not in any way contradict the commands to oppress non-Muslims within the empire.


This hits on what I was talking about before: you are conflating your own version of islamic texts with how you assume muslims behave - and not making a clear distinction at all between the two. This is wrong because you are making a false leap in logic.

freediver wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 10:08am:
Then your entire point is a strawman. BTW, the MI5 study does not actually contradict that view, unless you think modern terrorism is the only expression of Islamic violence. Even Abu rejects these particular forms of terrorism.


Granted, it may not contradict your rather fanciful (and baseless) assumption of how the muslim mind works, but I also had other poster's views in mind. I was particularly amused with Yadda's response to the study - that it is proof that the islamists had infiltrated British intelligence  Grin
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #129 - May 11th, 2013 at 12:29pm
 
Quote:
but at least if I saw exactly what he said I can do what you should have done all along - and compare that to the views of a wide range of muslim's opinions on forums, blogs, opinion pieces etc etc


So you want to follow Yadda's example?
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #130 - May 11th, 2013 at 12:48pm
 
Well at least Yadda produces something

Obviously what Yadda does is not constructive, because he only goes out looking for negative things. And don't think for a moment that by producing public statements by official islamic bodies, I believe I am proving anything - not by a long shot. Thats the whole point of this thread - I produce evidence of the message mainstream muslims are promoting - that islam it is tolerant and peaceful. Then you guys are supposed to produce evidence that thats not a sincere message. Thats how this is supposed to work. Instead I get a stream of two things: 1. baseless accusations about muslims being two-faced and 2. logical fallacies related to imposing one interpretation of islamic doctrine on to mainstream muslims.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #131 - May 11th, 2013 at 12:53pm
 
Quote:
Thats the whole point of this thread - I produce evidence of the message mainstream muslims are promoting - that islam it is tolerant and peaceful.


I don't think even Yadda disagrees with that.
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #132 - May 11th, 2013 at 1:03pm
 
thats not what I'm asking you to disprove - obviously.
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #133 - May 11th, 2013 at 3:29pm
 
freediver wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 10:08am:
Quote:
Nowhere does *YOUR* link mention anything about the need to lie and cheat "as a means to achieve objectives" - the only thing it mentions - in both the sunni and shia view - is as a last resort when lives are in danger.


Abu liked to explain that islam permitted lying in the context of war, and that he believed the west had been at war with the Muslims world for over a century. He also insisted that only Shites allow themselves to lie.


Sound about right...

Now, exactly why is this a problem, FD?

All combatants in war, lie.  It's a fact of life.

You seem though, if I'm not mistaken, to be confusing the war against the Takfiri Islamist Terrorists with a war against ALL Muslims and assume ALL Muslims lie.  Why?   Roll Eyes


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« Last Edit: May 11th, 2013 at 5:50pm by Brian Ross »  

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #134 - May 11th, 2013 at 4:39pm
 
There is no confusion. Abu did not say that the west has been at war with the Takfiri Islamist Terrorists for over a century. He said "the west" had been at war with the "Muslim world" for over a century (just not in the same thread where he said that war is a justification for deceiving people about Islam, or that only Shites permit themselves to lie about Islam).
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