Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #135 - May 11^th, 2013 at 5:49pm

simonhall1900 wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 10:50am:

Islam is saturated with contradictions and untruths. In other-words the end justifies the means........ If lies gain the advantage when truth fails, then it is permissible and perfectly justified. Hypocrisy is a tactical method to succeed as far as Islam is concerned and is morally (I use the term loosely in this case) and perfectly sound........Admission of failure and failings is not a consideration........... The vast majority of Muslims are dishonest and despicable because that is the way they have been indoctrinated from birth..............over many generations.

And this differs from other religions, how? Roll Eyes

It's obvious you've never studied the history of Christianity, have you? Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #136 - May 11^th, 2013 at 5:53pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 4:39pm:

There is no confusion. Abu did not say that the west has been at war with the Takfiri Islamist Terrorists for over a century. He said "the west" had been at war with the "Muslim world" for over a century (just not in the same thread where he said that war is a justification for deceiving people about Islam, or that only Shites permit themselves to lie about Islam).

And so, that doesn't answer the question I asked, FD.

If the West is at war with the Islamic world, why is lying not allowed? Do you assume that all combatants in any war will always tell the truth? Are you really this naive?

I don't believe for a moment that the West is at war with the Islamic world.

Why do you assume that all Muslims though both (a) share Abu's supposed opinion and (b) they all lie, all the time?

Interested to see your answers, FD. Roll Eyes

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #137 - May 11^th, 2013 at 6:33pm Quote: If the West is at war with the Islamic world, why is lying not allowed? It is, that is my point. Do I have to spell it out? Quote: I don't believe for a moment that the West is at war with the Islamic world. Is this somehow relevant? Are you a Muslim?
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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #138 - May 11^th, 2013 at 7:51pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 6:33pm:

Quote:

If the West is at war with the Islamic world, why is lying not allowed?

It is, that is my point. Do I have to spell it out?

Is it? Why aren't the most efficient and deadly weapons of massed destruction being employed to end this war, FD? Afterall, "the West" possesses them in far greater numbers and with far more efficient means of delivering them to their targets in the "Muslim World". If this is a true "clash of Civilisations", it must be an existential threat for "the West".

The reality is that we are at war with a political movement amongst Muslims. We target the Muslims adherents to these politico-religious beliefs and try and not to harm the moderate Muslims who have become their targets, far more than any one in "the West". You, on the otherhand make no differentiation. Roll Eyes

Quote:

I don't believe for a moment that the West is at war with the Islamic world.

Is this somehow relevant? Are you a Muslim?

Nope but I am a "Westerner". Remember, in any war there are at least two protagnists, FD. Roll Eyes

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #139 - May 11^th, 2013 at 9:19pm

Quote:

Is it? Why aren't the most efficient and deadly weapons of massed destruction being employed to end this war, FD?

I guess I do have to spell it out. I did not say the war is real. I said it was what Abu believed. It is relevant in the context of what he claimed about deception regarding Islam. I was not trying to draw you into a debate on the war on terror.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #140 - May 11^th, 2013 at 10:24pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 9:19pm:

Quote:

Is it? Why aren't the most efficient and deadly weapons of massed destruction being employed to end this war, FD?

I guess I do have to spell it out. I did not say the war is real. I said it was what Abu believed. It is relevant in the context of what he claimed about deception regarding Islam. I was not trying to draw you into a debate on the war on terror.

So, it isn't what you believe it is what "Abu", believed?

Why are you putting forward other's views as your own, FD?

I don't know any Muslims who believe the West is at war with Islam. I know many do believe it but they are as mistaken as the Westerners who push Huntington's thesis.

The West hasn't really exerted itself, collectively to attack, the Islamic world. If it had, the Islamic world would be in ruins and that wouldn't even mean resorting to WMDs.

I am as critical of this Muslim belief as I am of the Westerners who spread it's counterpart.

I am still wondering though, why you believe that belligerents are required to tell the truth... Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #141 - May 11^th, 2013 at 11:05pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 11:09pm:

Do you accept that there are many good Muslims? That they outnumber the bad ones whom do evil things?

If you don't then that prejudice is the basis of bigotry, Soren. Roll Eyes

The ones that distance themselves from Islam are good. The ones that want to follow Mohammed as per the Koran are bad.

What do you think? How do you tell good Mulims from bad ones? Can you tell the difference? Or is it just 'they are all good because they are attacked by Soren'?

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simonhall1900

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #142 - May 12^th, 2013 at 7:04am

Brian Ross wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 5:49pm:

simonhall1900 wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 10:50am:

Islam is saturated with contradictions and untruths. In other-words the end justifies the means........ If lies gain the advantage when truth fails, then it is permissible and perfectly justified. Hypocrisy is a tactical method to succeed as far as Islam is concerned and is morally (I use the term loosely in this case) and perfectly sound........Admission of failure and failings is not a consideration........... The vast majority of Muslims are dishonest and despicable because that is the way they have been indoctrinated from birth..............over many generations.

Quote:

And this differs from other religions, how? Roll Eyes

Since when were we debating "other" religions?

Quote:

It's obvious you've never studied the history of Christianity, have you? Roll Eyes

Nothing is obvious as far as you are concerned, you are single minded about Islam, and promote,in fact sanction, the despicable methods used by the MAJORITY of Muslims. Now I realise your ability to understand the written word is limited, but do try to keep up old boy; you are getting left behind somewhat in this debate.... Wink

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #143 - May 12^th, 2013 at 9:10am

Quote:

So, it isn't what you believe it is what "Abu", believed?

Well done Brian.

Quote:

Why are you putting forward other's views as your own, FD?

I made it pretty obvious it was not my own view Brian.

Quote:

I am as critical of this Muslim belief as I am of the Westerners who spread it's counterpart.

What right do you have to describe it as a "Muslim" belief? How do you know all Muslims believe this? You must couch all your criticism in apologies and ensure no-one might be inadvertently offended. Otherwise you merely prove your own bigotry.

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simonhall1900

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #144 - May 12^th, 2013 at 9:46am

In consideration of your "slowness" and just in case you haven't studied at all.........I will say that I don't not consider Islam a religion, I think it's an ideology obsessed with the destruction of Israel and the Western world, not unlike the Nazis in their quest for world domination in the 30s/40s, which is rather sad as far as the Jews and the Western world are concerned. We never seem to avoid the Sh!t that the nutcases want to impose upon us.

However, you may have noticed that I emphasise the MAJORITY, not all. As with all "beliefs" there are some who are not restricted by the constraints of being blinkered and dominated by the zealots of which may consist of anywhere from 45% to 60% of Muslims, or even more. Of course the remaining who are not fanatics, fall in line, or keep their heads down in case their fellow "Muslims" remove them, or ostracise them and their families from the Muslim society in which they live. I suspect that the vast majority fall in line.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #145 - May 12^th, 2013 at 9:58am freediver wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 9:10am: What right do you have to describe it as a "Muslim" belief? How do you know all Muslims believe this? Not all muslims have to believe it for it to be A muslims belief.
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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #146 - May 12^th, 2013 at 11:31am

Soren wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 11:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 11:09pm:

Do you accept that there are many good Muslims? That they outnumber the bad ones whom do evil things?

If you don't then that prejudice is the basis of bigotry, Soren. Roll Eyes

The ones that distance themselves from Islam are good. The ones that want to follow Mohammed as per the Koran are bad.

So, every Muslim who takes heart from the Q'ran and it's messages of peace and spirituality are bad in your mind? You do realise you're displaying A grade bigotry, Soren? Roll Eyes

Quote:

What do you think? How do you tell good Mulims from bad ones? Can you tell the difference? Or is it just 'they are all good because they are attacked by Soren'?

I tell the difference by what they do, Soren, not because of what you say. If they do good deeds, they are good. If they do bad things, they are obviously bad. Rather simple really. I judge Muslims in exactly the same way I judge any other individuals. How about you? Is it because of what they do or because of what you believe? Roll Eyes

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #147 - May 12^th, 2013 at 11:35am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 12:48pm:

Well at least Yadda produces something

Obviously what Yadda does is not constructive, because he only goes out looking for negative things. And don't think for a moment that by producing public statements by official islamic bodies, I believe I am proving anything - not by a long shot. Thats the whole point of this thread -

I produce evidence of the message mainstream muslims are promoting - that islam it is tolerant and peaceful.

Then you guys are supposed to produce evidence that thats not a sincere message.

Thats how this is supposed to work.

Instead I get a stream of two things: 1. baseless accusations about muslims being two-faced and 2. logical fallacies related to imposing one interpretation of islamic doctrine on to mainstream muslims.

gandalf,

If we accepted your logic, then it is 'mainstream' moslems, who define ISLAM's character, and ISLAM's values.

And your logic would argue, that the religion of ISLAM is but an empty facade, with nothing substantive behind it.

The motif, 'ISLAM', is an empty facade, with nothing substantive behind it.

In your worldview, it is the moslem 'mainstream' which defines ISLAM.

Whereas, in the real world, we both know that such a 'projection' [coming from moslems such as yourself] is just another moslem falsehood.

Because we both know that;

It is ISLAM's own foundation texts which define what the religion of ISLAM is, and it is those foundation texts which define ISLAM's character and values.

And it is not, not, not, the ummah who are free to 'describe' what ISLAM is, or is not.

On the contrary, it is ISLAM, ....which defines who a moslem is.

And who is not a moslem;

FROM ISLAMIC LAW

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #148 - May 12^th, 2013 at 11:44am

simonhall1900 wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 7:04am:

Brian Ross wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 5:49pm:

[quote author=simonhall1900 link=1367633212/127#127 date=1368233444]Islam is saturated with contradictions and untruths. In other-words the end justifies the means........ If lies gain the advantage when truth fails, then it is permissible and perfectly justified. Hypocrisy is a tactical method to succeed as far as Islam is concerned and is morally (I use the term loosely in this case) and perfectly sound........Admission of failure and failings is not a consideration........... The vast majority of Muslims are dishonest and despicable because that is the way they have been indoctrinated from birth..............over many generations.

Quote:

And this differs from other religions, how? Roll Eyes

Since when were we debating "other" religions?

Perhaps we need to view things in comparison, rather than isolation?

Quote:

Quote:

It's obvious you've never studied the history of Christianity, have you? Roll Eyes

Nothing is obvious as far as you are concerned, you are single minded about Islam, and promote,in fact sanction, the despicable methods used by the MAJORITY of Muslims. Now I realise your ability to understand the written word is limited, but do try to keep up old boy; you are getting left behind somewhat in this debate.... Wink

Actually, if no one spoke about Muslims and Islam I'd not give much thought. However, as there are many who condemn Muslims and Islam out of obvious prejudice, I am forced to think about it and condemn bigotry for what it is.

Remember the cliche (often attributed mistakenly to Edmund Burke), "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." I see this unfair, bigoted attack on all Muslims as evil, just as the anti-Semitic attack on Jews is.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #149 - May 12^th, 2013 at 11:52am

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 12:53pm:

Quote:

Thats the whole point of this thread - I produce evidence of the message mainstream muslims are promoting - that islam it is tolerant and peaceful.

I don't think even Yadda disagrees with that.

Is 'ISLAM', the moslem community ? ...is 'ISLAM' the 'moderate' 'mainstream' moslems ?

OR, is ISLAM, defined by the content of its own foundation texts ?

AND, if it is #2, how do those foundation texts, really, truthfully, define ISLAM ?

What do those foundation texts expose, about the real ISLAM ?

That is what we should be exploring, imo.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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