Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #150 - May 12^th, 2013 at 11:55am

Quote:

I tell the difference by what they do, Soren, not because of what you say.

So if Muslims obey the law while promoting the destruction of freedom and democracy, you will not complain until after they have taken away your right to?

Quote:

Remember the cliche (often attributed mistakenly to Edmund Burke), "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Actually, it also takes a few sycophants to defend the bad ones and make constant excuses for them.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #151 - May 12^th, 2013 at 12:00pm

freediver wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 11:55am:

Quote:

I tell the difference by what they do, Soren, not because of what you say.

So if Muslims obey the law while promoting the destruction of freedom and democracy, you will not complain until after they have taken away your right to?

You claim to be defending democracy but you'd deny it to people on the basis of their opinions because you disagree with them, FD?

Do you really have such a poor understanding of freedom of speech and expression, one of the major keystones of the very concepts you claim to be defending? Roll Eyes

Do you detect the irony?

Quote:

Quote:

Remember the cliche (often attributed mistakenly to Edmund Burke), "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Actually, it also takes a few sycophants to defend the bad ones and make constant excuses for them.

Where have I made any excuses for bad people, FD? Would you care to provide a quote of mine?

Or is that all Muslims are bad in your mind? You're just demonstrating your bigotry yet again, if that is true. Roll Eyes

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #152 - May 12^th, 2013 at 12:02pm Quote: You claim to be defending democracy but you'd deny it to people on the basis of their opinions because you disagree with them, FD? See Brian, this is another example of you substituting one of your little fantasies for what I actually say.
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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #153 - May 12^th, 2013 at 12:03pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 3:29pm:

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 10:08am:

Quote:

Nowhere does *YOUR* link mention anything about the need to lie and cheat "as a means to achieve objectives" - the only thing it mentions - in both the sunni and shia view - is as a last resort when lives are in danger.

Abu liked to explain that islam permitted lying in the context of war, and that he believed the west had been at war with the Muslims world for over a century. He also insisted that only Shites allow themselves to lie.

Sound about right...

Now, exactly why is this a problem, FD?

Errr, coz, moslems [living within host nations], in all of their 'official' community communications, misrepresent ISLAM and their intent, towards non-moslems.

Quote:

All combatants in war, lie. It's a fact of life.

You seem though, if I'm not mistaken, to be confusing the war against the Takfiri Islamist Terrorists with a war against ALL Muslims and assume ALL Muslims lie. Why? Roll Eyes

And moslems refuse to openly declare themselves at war, with us.

Oh, of course, some imam in Pakistan will declare that all moslems are at war with the West.

But right here, in Oz, moslems and the moslem community, in all of their 'official' community communications, purposely misrepresent ISLAM and their intent, towards non-moslems.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #154 - May 12^th, 2013 at 12:14pm

freediver wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 12:02pm:

Quote:

You claim to be defending democracy but you'd deny it to people on the basis of their opinions because you disagree with them, FD?

See Brian, this is another example of you substituting one of your little fantasies for what I actually say.

That is exactly what you said, FD. Do I really need to deconstruct your sentences for you? If that wasn't want you meant then change what you're saying because that is what I'm reading.

So, are Muslims allowed to express their own opinions?

'cause when you ask, "So if Muslims obey the law while promoting the destruction of freedom and democracy, you will not complain until after they have taken away your right to?"

You're essentially saying, "Muslims aren't allowed to express their opinions 'cause I disagree with them, cause they are espousing the destruction of freedom and democracy."

Substitute the word "black person" or "Jew" for "Muslim" and it's immediately obvious you're espousing bigotry, FD. "So if black people obey the law while promoting the destruction of [my racist version of] freedom and democracy, you will not complain until after they have taken away your right to?"

FD, you're not only claiming that Muslims cannot be first-class citizens and have their own opinions, you're saying that you cannot contest those ideas except by denying them their rights. Substituting other epitaphs for other groups, we can immediately see how prejudiced your views are, towards Muslims. Now, unless you're ok with Racism or Bigotry (and you seem to be claiming you're not 'cause you don't believe your displaying it), then either you're ignorant of the ramifications of what you're saying or your actually being disingenuous. Roll Eyes

I believe democracy and freedom is stronger than what a minority of a minority (Muslims) espouse as their opinions. I'm no more afraid of what some Muslims say than I am of what the tiny minority of Nazis or Communists in our society say. Are you running around like a chook with your head cut off because of what they mutter in their dark corners of our society? I suspect not. I also suspect you wouldn't deny them their rights either. Yet you'd deny them to Muslims because they are Muslim. Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #155 - May 12^th, 2013 at 12:16pm

Yadda wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 12:03pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 3:29pm:

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 10:08am:

Quote:

Nowhere does *YOUR* link mention anything about the need to lie and cheat "as a means to achieve objectives" - the only thing it mentions - in both the sunni and shia view - is as a last resort when lives are in danger.

Abu liked to explain that islam permitted lying in the context of war, and that he believed the west had been at war with the Muslims world for over a century. He also insisted that only Shites allow themselves to lie.

Sound about right...

Now, exactly why is this a problem, FD?

Errr, coz, moslems [living within host nations], in all of their 'official' community communications, misrepresent ISLAM and their intent, towards non-moslems.

According to whom, Yadda? You? You've got to be joking. Your opinion is so warped and biased that you couldn't even lie straight in bed. Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #156 - May 12^th, 2013 at 12:22pm Yadda wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 12:03pm: But right here, in Oz, moslems and the moslem community, in all of their 'official' community communications, purposely misrepresent ISLAM and their intent, towards non-moslems. 11 pages in, people just keep proving the point I raised in the OP.
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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #157 - May 12^th, 2013 at 12:24pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 11:31am:

Soren wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 11:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 11:09pm:

Do you accept that there are many good Muslims? That they outnumber the bad ones whom do evil things?

If you don't then that prejudice is the basis of bigotry, Soren. Roll Eyes

The ones that distance themselves from Islam are good. The ones that want to follow Mohammed as per the Koran are bad.

So, every Muslim who takes heart from

the Q'ran and it's messages of peace and spirituality

are bad in your mind? You do realise you're displaying A grade bigotry, Soren? Roll Eyes

"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful."

Koran 1.1

That is essentially it.

Quote:

Quote:

What do you think? How do you tell good Mulims from bad ones? Can you tell the difference? Or is it just 'they are all good because they are attacked by Soren'?

I tell the difference by what they do, Soren, not because of what you say.

If they do good deeds, they are good. If they do bad things, they are obviously bad.

Rather simple really. I judge Muslims in exactly the same way I judge any other individuals. How about you? Is it because of what they do or because of what you believe? Roll Eyes

And when moslems choose to associate themselves with ISLAM......

By declaring;

"I am a moslem."

;

.....a moslem, every moslem, is directly associating themselves with the 'religious' violence which ISLAM justifies, legitimises, promotes and encourages [as a philosophy].

And every moslem is thereby associating >> themselves << with those violent acts which are purposefully being done, 'in the name of Allah'.i
And 'goodness'.....

It is all 'relative', isn't it.

e.g.
ISLAM teaches moslems that cutting the throats of those who reject ISLAM, is 'a good deed'.

+++

In the UK, a moslem community leader speaking >> BEFORE << the London 7/7 Bus and Subway bombings....

Attack on London 'inevitable'
April 19, 2004
"We don't make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents. Only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value. It has no sanctity."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/19/1082326119414.html?from=storyrhs&on...

AND;

Speaking in the UK, publicly, AND THEN PRIVATELY, regarding the London 7/7 bombing victims.

"......In public interviews Bakri condemned the killing of all innocent civilians. Later when he addressed his own followers he explained that he had in fact been referring only to Muslims as only they were innocent: Yes I condemn killing any innocent people, but not any kuffar."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1724541,00.html

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #158 - May 12^th, 2013 at 12:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 12:22pm:

Yadda wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 12:03pm:

But right here, in Oz, moslems and the moslem community, in all of their 'official' community communications, purposely misrepresent ISLAM and their intent, towards non-moslems.

11 pages in, people just keep proving the point I raised in the OP.

Yes. Rather narrow-minded aren't they?

As for Yadda, he appears to never understand what is actually posted... Roll Eyes

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #159 - May 12^th, 2013 at 12:38pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 12:00pm:

freediver wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 11:55am:

Quote:

I tell the difference by what they do, Soren, not because of what you say.

So if Muslims obey the law while promoting the destruction of freedom and democracy, you will not complain until after they have taken away your right to?

#1,
You claim to be defending democracy but you'd deny it to people on the basis of their opinions because you disagree with them, FD?

#2,
Do you really have such a poor understanding of freedom of speech and expression, one of the major keystones of the very concepts you claim to be defending? Roll Eyes

#1,
Let persons who want democracy earn it for themselves - in their own countries - if they truly want to enjoy the 'freedoms' which democracy can bring.

And sedition and treason is not encompassed within the democratic rights, of those who live in a democracy.

#2,

Incitement to violence or murder is NOT protected, as a part of 'the right' of freedom of speech.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40938	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #160 - May 12^th, 2013 at 1:01pm Looks like you're displaying Xenophobia now, Yadda. Here is some big crayons for you. You must be running short again...
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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #161 - May 12^th, 2013 at 6:22pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 9:58am:

freediver wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 9:10am:

What right do you have to describe it as a "Muslim" belief? How do you know all Muslims believe this?

Not all muslims have to believe it for it to be *A* muslims belief.

Is there any belief Muslims actually share?
I ask because very time a Muslim does something terrible in the name of islam, all the apologists rush out to claim that it is not actually an islamic belief.

So is there any islamic belief you all share? Or is it all just a mirage, this 'Islam' and there is no actual common bond between you and the next fiercely individualistic bearded lone wolf?

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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #162 - May 12^th, 2013 at 6:26pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 12:06pm:

In another thread I created a while back, I demonstrated how leaders representing mainstream islam in the UK had condemned the so called "muslim patrols" happening on the streets of London.

Effect?

zero.

Good game, that. Big chief condemns. Nobody listens. 'Mainstream' Muslims can shrug and move on, Islam has nuffin to do wiv nuffin.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #163 - May 12^th, 2013 at 6:45pm

Soren wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 6:26pm:

Effect?

zero.

Good game, that. Big chief condemns. Nobody listens. 'Mainstream' Muslims can shrug and move on, Islam has nuffin to do wiv nuffin.

What are you talking about?

Who said it had zero effect? Have you conducted your own detailed analysis?

Are these muslim patrols still happening? Are the running rampant across the UK? No. Did the muslim leadership's condemnation of this have an effect? Quite possibly.

Muslims just can't win in your book - they stand up and say something against extremism and you just mock them Tongue

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40938	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #164 - May 12^th, 2013 at 6:52pm Of course Muslims can't win, Gandalf. Bigots because of their bigotry, will never allow them to.
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