Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #225 - May 14^th, 2013 at 11:55pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 14^th, 2013 at 11:44pm:

Soren wrote on May 14^th, 2013 at 10:48pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 9:44pm:

Attacking people because of their religious affiliations is bigotry, Soren.

I think this is a very stupid thing to say.

What you wanted to say but your nerves failed you was that attacking Muslims for believing in Islam is bigotry.

Soren, stop trying to put words in my mouth (or at my fingertips). If you can't argue against what I actually do type, you've lost the plot. Roll Eyes

You're the one who keeps claiming, "...but I'm not attacking Muslims, I'm attacking Islam!" Yeah, sure... Roll Eyes

The Incas had a religious affiliation that said it was OK to rip the hearts out of sacrificial individuals. Religious belief in ripping hears out is no protection against revulsion and condemnation or even, god help us, verbal disagreement which is what you find on these boards when religious beliefs are discussed.

Can I attack people who believe in the Great Zorg as stupid dolts?? I think people who believe what Mohammed, Marx, Jones, Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, Goebbels, Roderick Spode, 7th Earl of Sidcup or the Scientology guy were saying are sitting on the silly-stupid-monstrous scale. Somewhere near you, needless to say.

Can I say that?

Do I have to validate every fvckn idiotic fantasy? Do I have to respect every belief? Do you respect every belief?
No.
So stop being such a smacking smug, self-righteous goddam idiot. You are all very sensitive about your current pet obsession but you do not respect every belief.

Until you do, stop being such a neurotic-obsessive. Lots of people find Islam frightening and monstrous and disgusting and revolting. Others love it. There is a massive disagreement. It's OK.

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« Last Edit: May 15^th, 2013 at 12:12am by Soren »

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #226 - May 15^th, 2013 at 12:42am

Soren wrote on May 14^th, 2013 at 11:55pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 14^th, 2013 at 11:44pm:

Soren wrote on May 14^th, 2013 at 10:48pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 9:44pm:

Attacking people because of their religious affiliations is bigotry, Soren.

I think this is a very stupid thing to say.

What you wanted to say but your nerves failed you was that attacking Muslims for believing in Islam is bigotry.

Soren, stop trying to put words in my mouth (or at my fingertips). If you can't argue against what I actually do type, you've lost the plot. Roll Eyes

You're the one who keeps claiming, "...but I'm not attacking Muslims, I'm attacking Islam!" Yeah, sure... Roll Eyes

The Incas had a religious affiliation that said it was OK to rip the hearts out of sacrificial individuals.

I think you'll find you're thinking of the Aztec, Soren. The Inca didn't practice human sacrifice by ripping hearts out of people.

Quote:

Can I attack people who believe in the Great Zorg as stupid dolts?? I think people who believe what Mohammed, Marx, Jones, Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, Goebbels, Roderick Spode, 7th Earl of Sidcup or the Scientology guy were saying are sitting on the silly-stupid-monstrous scale. Somewhere near you, needless to say.

Can I say that?

Do I have to validate every fvckn idiotic fantasy? Do I have to respect every belief? Do you respect every belief?
No.
So stop being such a smacking smug, self-righteous goddam idiot. You are all very sensitive about your current pet obsession but you do not respect every belief.

Until you do, stop being such a neurotic-obsessive. Lots of people find Islam frightening and monstrous and disgusting and revolting. Others love it. There is a massive disagreement. It's OK.

Feeling the pressure of the inherent contradictions in your position? Grin

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« Last Edit: May 15^th, 2013 at 11:41pm by Brian Ross »

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #227 - May 15^th, 2013 at 8:06am

Soren wrote on May 14^th, 2013 at 11:16pm:

My point is that despite all the 'mainstream Mulsim' hard work, nothing has changed.
Nothing. The 'mainstream Muslim' utterances count for fvckall.
Muslims are still massacring each other in Muslim majority countries and Muslms are still in conflict with everyone who is not a Muslim in countries where they are not in a majority.
'Mainstream Muslims' must be the most goddam ineffective human grouping in history.

If what they say is true, that is.

But their honesty is the million dollar question, after all. That's my point, based on the zero effect they have on the rest of the Muslims (for whom Mohammed's utterances in the Koran and the hadiths count for infinitely more than any 'moderate Muslim leader's unconvincing and unheeded gesticulations for reasonableness. Reasonableness is not in the Koran and the hadiths, not when it comes to those who do not follow Mohammed blindly).

See you've just done an about turn Soren. Before this you seemed to be taking the far more reasonable position that the problem was that the mainstream muslim leaders are not doing enough to rein in the extremists - are being cowered and intimidated etc. Now in the face of actual evidence that this is *NOT* the case, you have turned this into a "oh it doesn't matter what leaders do - cause the texts are eeeeeeeeevil anyway" meme. Basically something that cannot be reasonably discussed.

Thats what you do Soren - start off with something that is reasonable and debatable - then when it is shown to be wrong based on the evidence, you drop the act, shift the goalposts, and pretend that its about something else entirely - something that can't be falsified or debated at all.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #228 - May 15^th, 2013 at 9:27pm

I have been thinking about this- thank you, an interesting point.

All the responsible Muslims, reacting to atrocities, respond in the framework of the texts.
The texts are pretty clearly bloody and gruesome. Also, they are not open to textual interpretation insofar as they are the direct words of Allah - who is to interpret Allah?

So all the nice Muslim speaking out against suicide bombings are hindered by the actual texts of Islam which they are not permitted to contradict.

The actual civil war of Islam we are all now sucked into is really about the reformability of Islam. But having the opening gambit of 'this is god's unchallengable word' makes the dispute unresolvable and so perpetual. Islam's civil war is about the clash of the irresitakle need and urge to interpret and the prohibition to interpret god.
Muslims are destined to massacre each other for ever over this; it is part of the creed. There is no way out for Muslims - to interpret is to contradict god.

The murderous internal dispute will not be shut down and it will not be reinterpreted. You guys are well and truly buggered, mostly because the guy who set the whole thing up , Mohammed, was a bit of a Hugo Chavez of his time - attractive on a superficial level but ultimately a shallow lightweight of negligible intellect or ability, beyond a massive go, sexual charisma and a will to overcome his inferiority complex.

He shopped his ideas to the Jews and when they laughed him out of court he turned on them and the rest of the world.

I am frankly amazed that anyone literate still follows Mohammed. Islam strikes me as utterly pedestrian and unimaginative. It prohibits imaginative endeavours (music, art) because of its fetish about everything in the Koran being god's actual word rather than something inspired. This is why I think of the whole thing as a massive misunderstanding by Mohammed and everyone who follows him.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #229 - May 15^th, 2013 at 9:41pm

Soren wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

I have been thinking about this- thank you, an interesting point.

All the responsible Muslims, reacting to atrocities, respond in the framework of the texts.
The texts are pretty clearly bloody and gruesome. Also, they are not open to textual interpretation insofar as they are the direct words of Allah - who is to interpret Allah?

So all the nice Muslim speaking out against suicide bombings are hindered by the actual texts of Islam which they are not permitted to contradict.

The actual civil war of Islam we are all now sucked into is really about the reformability of Islam. But having the opening gambit of 'this is god's unchallengable word' makes the dispute unresolvable and so perpetual. Islam's civil war is about the clash of the irresitakle need and urge to interpret and the prohibition to interpret god.
Muslims are destined to massacre each other for ever over this; it is part of the creed. There is no way out for Muslims - to interpret is to contradict god.

The murderous internal dispute will not be shut down and it will not be reinterpreted. You guys are well and truly buggered, mostly because the guy who set the whole thing up , Mohammed, was a bit of a Hugo Chavez of his time - attractive on a superficial level but ultimately a shallow lightweight of negligible intellect or ability, beyond a massive go, sexual charisma and a will to overcome his inferiority complex.

He shopped his ideas to the Jews and when they laughed him out of court he turned on them and the rest of the world.

I am frankly amazed that anyone literate still follows Mohammed. Islam strikes me as utterly pedestrian and unimaginative. It prohibits imaginative endeavours (music, art) because of its fetish about everything in the Koran being god's actual word rather than something inspired. This is why I think of the whole thing as a massive misunderstanding by Mohammed and everyone who follows him.

soren,

You just don't get it.

ISLAM is Allah's perfect religion.

All moslems want peace.

If you will just submit to the moslems [and Allah], you will experience peace.

Simple.

Got it ?

Tongue

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21876 A cat with a view	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #230 - May 15^th, 2013 at 9:48pm Yadda wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 9:41pm: All moslems want peace. If you will just submit to the moslems [and Allah], you will experience peace. Simple. Got it ? soren, Brian Ross is willing to submit to moslems. So why won't you ? You bigot!
Back to top	"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 IP Logged

Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #231 - May 15^th, 2013 at 10:14pm

Yadda wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 9:48pm:

Yadda wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 9:41pm:

All moslems want peace.

If you will just submit to the moslems [and Allah], you will experience peace.

Simple.

Got it ?

Tongue

soren,

Brian Ross is willing to submit to moslems.

So why won't you ?

You bigot! Tongue

Erecting a strawman argument, Yadda?

Tell me, Yadda, if a Muslim was placed in authority over you at work (I assume you work), would you "submit" to them?

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #232 - May 15^th, 2013 at 11:28pm

Soren wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

So all the nice Muslim speaking out against suicide bombings are hindered by the actual texts of Islam which they are not permitted to contradict.

Suicide bombings directly disobey about 3 explicit commands spelled out in the Quran, so that makes absolutely no sense.

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« Last Edit: May 15^th, 2013 at 11:38pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #233 - May 15^th, 2013 at 11:52pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 11:28pm:

Soren wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

So all the nice Muslim speaking out against suicide bombings are hindered by the actual texts of Islam which they are not permitted to contradict.

Suicide bombings directly disobey about 3 explicit commands spelled out in the Quran, so that makes absolutely no sense.

Which 3 commands gandalf ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #234 - May 16^th, 2013 at 12:12am

Yadda - firstly, thank you for composing a reply that doesn't have a thousand words of quranic and biblical quotes, interspersed with placard pics.

Secondly, assuming we are talking about the "regular" type of suicide bombings, these commands would be:
1. no suicide
2. no killing of non-combatants
3. no killing of those who didn't oppress you (eg women and children)

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #235 - May 16^th, 2013 at 12:40am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 11:28pm:

Soren wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

So all the nice Muslim speaking out against suicide bombings are hindered by the actual texts of Islam which they are not permitted to contradict.

Suicide bombings directly disobey about 3 explicit commands spelled out in the Quran, so that makes absolutely no sense.

gandalf,

OK Mohammed did not 'employ' suicide bombers.

But according to the hadith, he did employ assassins, to kill critics, and he did employ terror, in his warfare.

Allah's Apostle said,

"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."

hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):....."

hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062

gandalf,

When a person resorts to the use of terror to achieve [what are] political aims, hasn't he come to embrace a morality an immorality which proclaims that, 'the ends justifies the means' ?

i.e.
'Let us do evil, so that good may come.'

What sort of morality is that ?

I would argue that Mohammed, the messenger of Allah, endorsed that morality.

Didn't he ?

As per the Koran.....

"Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah, He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand.
Koran 47.33-35
i.e. Those who disbelieve and resist moslem demands, are the enemies of Allah, kill them.
i.e. Whenever you have the upper hand, slay those who resist ISLAM's lawful [i.e. 'moral'] authority/superiority.

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

And gandalf,

These ISLAMIC policies are not speaking of the civil or the religious 'punishment' of wrong doers.

These ISLAMIC policies are justifying the use of terror and murderous means, to achieve political objectives and aims.

That is 'religious' fascism.

It is ISLAM.

MORE....

A moslem scholars, seem to make declarations, justifying, ISLAM's murder of those who do not believe, as they believe.

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

+++

Quote:

Western policies are to blame, says Livingstone
By Andrew Sparrow, Political Correspondent
20/07/2005
Ken Livingstone yesterday blamed western policies for contributing to the spread of the extremist beliefs that inspired the London bombers.
......In a separate move, Anjem Choudary, the UK leader of the militant Islamist group al-Muhajiroun, interviewed for BBC Radio 4's Today programme said.....
"The British Government wants to...........divide the Muslim community into moderates and extremists, whereas this classification doesn't exist in Islam," he said.
"Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practising one....."

google

Quote:

"Don’t call me radical. Don’t call me moderate. Call me Muslim."
.....We do not have “radical” and “moderate” in Islam. Muslims are Muslims.
.....Unfortunately those who follow the Quran and practise their religion are called radical Muslims or extremist or Islamist or fundamentalist. And those who only carry the name of Muslim and Islam without following the orders of Allah in the Holy Quran are called moderate Muslims or understanding Muslims or open minded Muslims!

google

Quote:

Cleric preaches that violence is part of Islam
By Duncan Gardham
01/05/2007
In documents seen by The Daily Telegraph, al-Muhajiroun claimed: "Terrorism is a part of Islam" and "Allah made it obligatory to prepare and to terrify the enemy of Allah".
The article advised: "The kuffar of USA and UK are without doubt our enemy.There is no such thing as an innocent kafir, innocence is only applicable for the Muslims. Not only is it obligatory to fight them, it is haram [forbidden] to feel sorry for them."

google

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #236 - May 16^th, 2013 at 12:58am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 12:12am:

Yadda - firstly, thank you for composing a reply that doesn't have a thousand words of quranic and biblical quotes, interspersed with placard pics.

Secondly, assuming we are talking about the "regular" type of suicide bombings, these commands would be:
1. no suicide
2. no killing of non-combatants
3. no killing of those who didn't oppress you (eg women and children)

1. no suicide
2. no killing of non-combatants
3. no killing of those who didn't oppress you (eg women and children)

2 and 3 are strike through's.

I know of a hadith, were night fighting was condoned by Mohammed.

His cadres questioned whether women and children may be killed, and Mohammed replied to the effect that the women and children [who may be killed] were 'of them' [the enemy].

i.e.
Mohammed didn't care if women and children, who were 'of them', the enemy, died.

And #1,
The hadith is full of Mohammed urging mujahideen to jihad, and telling them how glorious it is for a moslem to die, fighting in Allah's cause.

"The Koran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader, jihad is our path and death in the name of Allah is our goal."

Declaration by Morsi - Recently elected ISLAMIST PRESIDENT of Egypt.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #237 - May 16^th, 2013 at 7:44am

Yadda, the few times that I take any notice of your (mis)quotes, its pretty obvious that they are just blatant misinterpretations:

Yadda wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 12:40am:

Allah's Apostle said,
"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."

Is it clear from this that he achieved this by carrying out actual acts of "terror" (ie slaughtering women and children etc)? No.

The English translation here is "terror - cast in the hearts of the enemy" - nothing here suggests actual acts of violence/terror was employed to achieve this. Even the most elementary understanding of the history of the spread of islam would indicate that this "terror" on the part of islam's enemies was caused not by acts of aggression and violence by the small muslim nation, but through sheer incredulity that they had failed so spectacularly to crush the muslims - despite enormous superiority in numbers. And in fact, far from being weakened by their constant attacks, they were thriving.

Yadda wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 12:40am:

A moslem scholars, seem to make declarations, justifying, ISLAM's murder of those who do not believe, as they believe.

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

Come on Yadda, its patently obvious that that quote is referring to the martyrs killed fighting for islam, not those non-muslims killed by islamic violence.

Yadda wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 12:58am:

2 and 3 are strike through's.

I know of a hadith, were night fighting was condoned by Mohammed.

Quran is the most important. Whatever apparent contradictions there are between the quran and hadith, Quran always trumps the hadith. So its simply pointless refuting a Quranic quote with a hadith quote - unless you can prove that the Quran has been mistranlated - but in the case of these three points, it is as clear as it can be IMO.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #238 - May 16^th, 2013 at 9:13am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 7:44am:

Quran is the most important. Whatever apparent contradictions there are between the quran and hadith, Quran always trumps the hadith. So its simply pointless refuting a Quranic quote with a hadith quote.

The hadith trumps the Quran with stoning to death for adultery.

The hadith trumps the Quran with death for apostasy.

Do you think anyone will believe your lies?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #239 - May 16^th, 2013 at 9:45am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 7:44am:

Yadda, the few times that I take any notice of your (mis)quotes, its pretty obvious that they are just blatant misinterpretations:

Yadda wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 12:40am:

Allah's Apostle said,
"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."

Is it clear from this that he achieved this by carrying out actual acts of "terror" (ie slaughtering women and children etc)? No.

The English translation here is "terror - cast in the hearts of the enemy" - nothing here suggests actual acts of violence/terror was employed to achieve this.

Then why would the hadith emphasise that words of Mohammed ?

Why would Mohammed utter those specific phrases ?

AGAIN...

Allah's Apostle said,

"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."

hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):....."

hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062

Yadda wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:41am:

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 24^th, 2009 at 12:56pm:

Grendel said,
Quote:

Under Islam becoming a martyr by killing innocents is acceptable under Christianity killing innocents is not.

This simply isn't true. Islam specifically forbids killing of non-combatants. Muhammad (pbuh) clearly forbade it in his sayings.

IS THAT STATEMENT [above] TRUE?

Grendel,

What abu declares above is true [AND, also false!].

......

"During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children."

bukhari/ #004.052.258

On the face of it, "...Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children."

But those verses do not infer, or reveal, the motive/reason
, for that 'prohibition'.

I suggest that we should seek out those motives!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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