Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #270 - May 17^th, 2013 at 2:32pm

Soren wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 11:39am:

Noticing sectarian violence among Muslims is not hateful or prejudiced.

no, but being so selective can be.

I mean you did pick a bad moment in history to point out the sectarian strife in Syria (for example). The reality is, up until 2011, multiple different sects have been coexisting happilly together in Syria for decades, even centuries.

Really you could have talked about any number of areas in the world that have significant muslim populations - Turkey, India, Malaysia, Lebanon - all have multiple ethnicities and multiple different sorts of islamic and non-islamic communities - all who by and large coexist peacefully.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #271 - May 17^th, 2013 at 2:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 2:32pm:

Soren wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 11:39am:

Noticing sectarian violence among Muslims is not hateful or prejudiced.

no, but being so selective can be.

I mean you did pick a bad moment in history to point out the sectarian strife in Syria (for example). The reality is, up until 2011, multiple different sects have been coexisting happilly together in Syria for decades, even centuries.

Really you could have talked about any number of areas in the world that have significant muslim populations - Turkey, India, Malaysia, Lebanon -

Lebanon had a civil war just like Iraq and Syria today so all peachy in Islam eh Gandalf. Grin

30 years ago there was strife in Syria just like today.
Quote:

The hama massacre occurred in Feb 1982 when the Syrian arab army and the defense companies, under the orders of Hafez al assad besieged the town of Hama for 27 days in order to quell an uprising by the muslim brotherhood against the government

According to Syrian media, anti government rebels initiated the fighting who pounced on our comrades while they were sleeping in their homes and killed whomever they could kill of women and children, mutilating the bodies of the martyrs in the streets,driven like mad dogs,by their black hatred.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

30 years ago in Syria the sunni were fighting the alawites just like today, there were no calls for the USA to intervene in that sectarian dispute between rival sects of Islam.

I thought is was haram for a muslim to kill another muslim.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #272 - May 17^th, 2013 at 3:17pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 8:27am:

Gee thanks Baron, I totally didn't know that hamas are extremists who engage in terrorism. Roll Eyes

If there are (say) even just 1% of a population of 1.5 billion who are extremists and support violence, thats still a hell of a lot of individual anecdotes you can come up with - even though its only part of 1% of the entire population.

Trully I would be fascinated to know what drives a person to exercise such selectivity - to sift through and discard all the mountains evidence until they get to a radical former neo-nazi who portrays the "correct" hateful message of islam they want to present. Is it that you are trully that hateful? Or is it just that you are too lazy to go beyond jihadwatch and answering-islam (who will *ALWAYS* be the first hits of any search on islam), and are happy for them to force feed you their hate?

Hamas are the democratically elected government in Palestine, do the Saudis and Iran consider them to be terrorists or just a few western countries?

Quote:

Hamas- (Islamic resistance movement) is the Palestinian Sunni Islamic organization.

Since june 2007 Hamas has governed the Gaza strip after it won a majority of seats in the Palestinian parliament.

Based on the principles of Islamic fundamentalism gaining momentum throughout the arab world in the 1980's ,Hamas was founded in 1987 as an offshoot of the muslim brotherhood movement.

The hamas military wing has launched attacks on Israel,both military and civillian targets have included rocket attacks and suicide bombings.

The largest backer of Hamas was Saudi Arabia with over 50% of its funds coming from that country.
(muslims face Mecca when praying, where do they go for Hajj?)

In the late 80's, 10% of all Hamas funding came from the Islamic republic of Iran.

Charter, article 7
The day of judgement will not come until the moslems fight the jews (killing the jews), when the jew will hide behind stones and trees.The stones and trees will say (wtf did stones and trees grow vocal chords. Grin

) O moslems there is a jew behind me come and kill him

Criticism- (not from muslims lol)
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

As for support for Hamas we could look at the pew report or just ask muslims about the fiilthy yahud in Israel.
Quote:

Views of Hamas % favourable
Jordan 60%
Lebanon 49%
Nigeria 49%
Indonesia 43%
Egypt 49%
www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbo...

A fair bit of support for Hamas and hezbollah despite them being declared terrorists in the west.

Does Hezbollah mean "Party of God"?

I dont go to jihadwatch i am a member of the Council of ex muslims.
www.councilofexmuslims.com

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #273 - May 17^th, 2013 at 3:40pm

Baronvonrort wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Lebanon had a civil war just like Iraq and Syria today so all peachy in Islam eh Gandalf

The roots of the Lebanese civil war can be traced back to the influx of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees in the 60s and 70s. And this in turn can of course be traced to the creation of the state of Israel.

Baronvonrort wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

30 years ago in Syria the sunni were fighting the alawites just like today

No, 30 years ago an anti Assad rebellion was fighting Assad's government forces in an attempt to overthrow them. It was *NOT* a fight against any particular sect or ethnicity.

The two situations you describe represent strife that was political, not sectarian in nature. Neither of them altered the reality that different sects and ethnicities have been living harmoniously together for centuries in both those countries.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #274 - May 17^th, 2013 at 8:07pm

gandalf,

re your post #267

including this....

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 11:37am:

.......So what do actual mainstream islamic bodies say about extremism and violence in the name of islam?

The muslim council of Britain - the umbrella organisation representing all British muslims:

on terrorism:
[quote]Muslims everywhere consider all acts of terrorism that aims to murder and maim innocent human beings utterly reprehensible and abhorrent. There is no theological basis whatsoever for such acts in our faith. The very meaning of the word 'Islam' is peace. It rejects terror and promotes peace and harmony.

n.b.

"on terrorism:.....There is no theological basis whatsoever for such acts in our faith.....[ISLAM] rejects terror and promotes peace and harmony."

The muslim council of Britain - the umbrella organisation representing all British muslims:

....What a pack of liars.

AGAIN;

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED - ISLAM'S PROPHET AND ARGUABLY, THE AUTHOR OF OF ALL OF ISLAM'S THEOLOGY

Allah's Apostle said,

"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."

hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):....."

hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062

AGAIN;

FROM ISLAM'S PRIMARY THEOLOGICAL TEXT

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

Google;
how islam divides the world, Dar al-Harb

AGAIN;

FROM THE MUSLIM COUNCIL OF BRITAIN - THE UMBRELLA ORGANISATION REPRESENTING ALL BRITISH MUSLIMS

"on terrorism:.....There is no theological basis whatsoever for such acts in our faith.....[ISLAM] rejects terror and promotes peace and harmony."

Q.
How can any two persons [e.g. a moslem and a non-moslem] communicate amicably, and have any confidence in any assurances which they offer each other, when one of them is an inveterate lair ?

A.
They can't.

Moslems are inveterate lairs.

Moslems always, always, always, misrepresent, and lie about ISLAM, to non-moslem communities.

Moslems always, always, always, lie to non-moslem communities and pretend that ISLAM is a peaceful and tolerant faith.

ISLAM IS NOT A PEACEFUL AND TOLERANT FAITH.

"The Koran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader, jihad is our path and death in the name of Allah is our goal."

Declaration by Morsi - Recently elected ISLAMIST PRESIDENT of Egypt.

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

+++

THE MOSLEMS ARE INVETERATE LIARS

AGAIN;

ABOUT TAQIYYA

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

google

Google;

taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;

we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

How Taqiyya Alters Islams Rules of War

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #275 - May 17^th, 2013 at 8:55pm Brian Ross wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 8:46pm: The mainstream reject violence and suicide bombing. Bvllshit. The mainstream issue fatwahs - you know, religious rulings justifying MURDER, you silly mook. bugger! you are stupid and completely out of your depth.
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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #276 - May 17^th, 2013 at 9:24pm

Soren wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 8:55pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 8:46pm:

The mainstream reject violence and suicide bombing.

Bvllshit.
The mainstream issue fatwahs - you know, religious rulings justifying MURDER, you silly mook.

bugger! you are stupid and completely out of your depth.

Soren, I'm not the one resorting to ad hominen in my arguments. Roll Eyes

The mainstream isn't the only group which can issue fatwas, yes. Anybody in Islam can issue a fatwa, even the extremists and most of the fatwas which deal with murder are issued by extremists, don't you realise?

And yes, that makes Ruhollah Khomeini an extremist IMHO.

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #277 - May 17^th, 2013 at 9:39pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 9:24pm:

IMHO.

Ah!!
But as you have evidently NOT noticed, how Islam operates has nuffin to do with your opinion, humble or not.
fatwas are issued regardless of what you think. Mulsims kill each other regardless of what you think.
Muslims kill non-muslims regardless of what you think.

I think it's time for you to face the irrelevance of your emotions as far as Islam is concerned.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #278 - May 17^th, 2013 at 10:00pm I'm sorry Soren, are you saying fatwas are only for justifying violence?
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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #279 - May 17^th, 2013 at 10:13pm

Soren wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 9:39pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 9:24pm:

IMHO.

Ah!!
But as you have evidently NOT noticed, how Islam operates has nuffin to do with your opinion, humble or not.
fatwas are issued regardless of what you think. Mulsims kill each other regardless of what you think.
Muslims kill non-muslims regardless of what you think.

I think it's time for you to face the irrelevance of your emotions as far as Islam is concerned.

Thing is, Soren, you've missed the point...again.

I'm not talking about how I believe Islam operates. I'm talking about how you believe Islam operates which is very much at odds with what I have observed of the religion and it's believers. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #280 - May 17^th, 2013 at 11:56pm

Baronvonrort wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 2:32pm:

Soren wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 11:39am:

Noticing sectarian violence among Muslims is not hateful or prejudiced.

no, but being so selective can be.

I mean you did pick a bad moment in history to point out the sectarian strife in Syria (for example). The reality is, up until 2011, multiple different sects have been coexisting happilly together in Syria for decades, even centuries.

Really you could have talked about any number of areas in the world that have significant muslim populations - Turkey, India, Malaysia, Lebanon -

Lebanon had a civil war just like Iraq and Syria today so all peachy in Islam eh Gandalf. Grin

30 years ago there was strife in Syria just like today.
Quote:

The hama massacre occurred in Feb 1982 when the Syrian arab army and the defense companies, under the orders of Hafez al assad besieged the town of Hama for 27 days in order to quell an uprising by the muslim brotherhood against the government

According to Syrian media, anti government rebels initiated the fighting who pounced on our comrades while they were sleeping in their homes and killed whomever they could kill of women and children, mutilating the bodies of the martyrs in the streets,driven like mad dogs,by their black hatred.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

30 years ago in Syria the sunni were fighting the alawites just like today, there were no calls for the USA to intervene in that sectarian dispute between rival sects of Islam.

I thought is was haram for a muslim to kill another muslim.

You see, baron, if they are the 'wrong kind' of moslem, then moslems have a special dispensation from Allah, to kill em, kill em all!

The Koran instructs moslems, not to take the 'wrong kind' of moslems as friends.

And whenever they oppose you [in Allah's way], kill them.

"Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-"
Koran 4.88, 89

Who are the 'renegades' ?

Its simple!

Those who do not believe, as you believe, are the renegades !

Special dispensation from Allah, to kill em, kill em all!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #281 - May 18^th, 2013 at 9:51pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 10:13pm:

I'm not talking about how I believe Islam operates. I'm talking about how you believe Islam operates which is very much at odds with what I have observed of the religion and it's believers. Roll Eyes

Well, my observation of the religion and its believers shows me that they are anti-freedom and they are intolerant of anything non-muslim once they are not a minority.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #282 - May 18^th, 2013 at 9:56pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 10:00pm: I'm sorry Soren, are you saying fatwas are only for justifying violence? Only? So if they are used to justify charitable works AS WELL AS violence then they are OK??? What's wrong with you?
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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #283 - May 18^th, 2013 at 10:03pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 10:13pm:

Soren wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 9:39pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 9:24pm:

IMHO.

Ah!!
But as you have evidently NOT noticed, how Islam operates has nuffin to do with your opinion, humble or not.
fatwas are issued regardless of what you think. Mulsims kill each other regardless of what you think.
Muslims kill non-muslims regardless of what you think.

I think it's time for you to face the irrelevance of your emotions as far as Islam is concerned.

Thing is, Soren, you've missed the point...again.

I'm not talking about how I believe Islam operates. I'm talking about how you believe Islam operates which is very much at odds with what I have observed of the religion and it's believers. Roll Eyes

Allah humma Innee As alooka 'ilman naa fee-ow wa Rizq-ow waa See-ow wa Shee-faa amm min Kooll-lee daa-een. &&

What's that about, 'Brian'?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #284 - May 18^th, 2013 at 10:36pm

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 9:56pm:

Only?
So if they are used to justify charitable works AS WELL AS violence then they are OK???

What's wrong with you?

Of course they are ok. Show me a mainstream muslim body or leader issuing any kind of fatwa supporting violence.

Speaking of fatwas, here's a body of muslims doing "nuffin about nuffin" in regards to standing up to violence. Just ask Baron about it - apparently he thinks the existence of this fatwa supports his view that islam is evil - somehow. Cheesy

Anyway, here's the muslim scholar who produced the fatwa - as usual being deliberately vague and uncategorical about islam's position view on terrorism:

Terrorism is terrorism, violence is violence and it has no place in Islamic teaching and no justification can be provided for it, or any kind of excuses or ifs or buts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa_on_Terrorism

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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