Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #15 - May 4^th, 2013 at 7:04pm contemporary UK is fine adamant. Please, by all means, dispel away.
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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #16 - May 4^th, 2013 at 7:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 7:01pm:

<facepalm>

We've been through this before FD. Your muslim sources are entirely Abu and Falah. Who do they speak for? What do they represent?

If you feel these two people accurately reflect mainstream islam, please provide evidence.

Or put it this way - if I was to counter by offering the opinions of two other random muslims that happen to give opposite views of Abu and Falah - would you be satisfied? Of course not.

What are muslims overwhelmingly being taught in mosques and islamic schools and muslim organisations across the western world? The claim is being put out there by, well, just about everyone who frequents this forum, that they are being given the wrong message - an ambivalent message at best, and outright incitement at worst - which causes muslims to go out and be extremists and terrorists. All I'm asking for is some evidence to support this claim. Thats not too much to ask is it?

You are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing - presenting a strawman argument rather than what people have actually said. To put it simply, according to Abu (and lots of other Muslims), Islamic violence is supposed to be effective, structured, state approved etc, with all the relevant paperwork filled out. Islam preaches the organised violence of a militant empire, not idiots running round blowing things up. You can criticise those idiots quite easily without rejecting the principles of Islamic violence. The reason there are so many of those idiots running round blowing things up is because Muhammed never had to deal with a crumbling, then a totally dismantled empire that lacks the authoritative structure to direct the violence towards an end that suits the empire. Muslims are at a loss about how to handle the situation. There is nothing in the Koran about how to be the underdog.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #17 - May 4^th, 2013 at 7:43pm

Quote:

You are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing - presenting a strawman argument rather than what people have actually said. To put it simply, according to Abu (and lots of other Muslims), Islamic violence is supposed to be effective, structured, state approved etc, with all the relevant paperwork filled out. Islam preaches the organised violence of a militant empire, not idiots running round blowing things up. You can criticise those idiots quite easily without rejecting the principles of Islamic violence.

Firstly, what principles of islamic violence are you talking about? The only violence I am aware that islam condones is self defence. But you seem to be saying that there is an institution of organised aggressive violence in islam. I have to say I am not aware of such an institution - and I'm certainly not aware of it being taught in islamic schools and mosques in a way that would make "idiots running around blowing things up" inevitable. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, do you have any evidence that this is the case?

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

There is nothing in the Koran about how to be the underdog.

Your showing quite the ignorance there FD. More than 50% of the Quran was written while the small islamic nation was firmly under the thumb of their stronger enemies. Put simply, most of the quran is precisely about being the underdog - and the teachings of these verses is the most appropriate prescription of how muslims in non-muslim lands should behave - ie peacefully and non-confrontational.

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #18 - May 4^th, 2013 at 8:34pm

Quote:

Firstly, what principles of islamic violence are you talking about? The only violence I am aware that islam condones is self defence. But you seem to be saying that there is an institution of organised aggressive violence in islam.

I call it militant expansionism. It also goes by the name 'the slavery - rape and pillage complex'.

Quote:

I have to say I am not aware of such an institution

More politically correct people call it a Caliphate. Even more politically correct people pretend it never existed.

Quote:

and I'm certainly not aware of it being taught in islamic schools and mosques in a way that would make "idiots running around blowing things up" inevitable.

You obviously misunderstand. It is against that sort of thing. Violence needs to be organised and effective. Otherwise it is just a waste. You can hardly say that Muslims have benefited from the recent violence.

Quote:

Put simply, most of the quran is precisely about being the underdog - and the teachings of these verses is the most appropriate prescription of how muslims in non-muslim lands should behave - ie peacefully and non-confrontational.

You mean the house of war stuff? What have I said that contradicts this?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #19 - May 4^th, 2013 at 9:28pm

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

I call it militant expansionism. It also goes by the name 'the slavery - rape and pillage complex'.

Again, do you have any evidence that mainstream islam promotes this sort of organised militant expansion? You are big on claims FD, not so big on substantiating these claims.

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

You obviously misunderstand. It is against that sort of thing. Violence needs to be organised and effective. Otherwise it is just a waste. You can hardly say that Muslims have benefited from the recent violence.

What are we arguing again? Its confusing because you've gone from citing Anjem Choudary - one of those people encouraging "idiots running around blowing things up" as evidence for mainstream islam promoting the "unofficial", "unorganised" type of islamic violence - to now claiming that actually mainstream islam does no such thing. So why did you mention Choudary in the first place again? Can you please at least think your argument through a little better?

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

You mean the house of war stuff? What have I said that contradicts this?

Again, your ignorance betrays you. The so called house of war has nothing to do with the quran - it was conceived about a century after the prophet's death. You made the claim "There is nothing in the Koran about how to be the underdog. " - which is laughably untrue - since most of the quran is entirely about muslims being the underdog - and how they should live their lives accordingly.

But here's a little exercise for you: look up what official, mainstream islamic bodies say and teach about muslims living in non-muslim lands, and work out whether the message is a) muslims must obey the law of the land and coexist peacefully with their non-muslim neighbours or b) must organise militarily to fight and overthrow the non-muslim rulers. - even if it means laying low until they have the strength to do it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #20 - May 4^th, 2013 at 9:57pm

Quote:

Again, do you have any evidence that mainstream islam promotes this sort of organised militant expansion? You are big on claims FD, not so big on substantiating these claims.

Sure. probably the best evidence is the example set by Muhammed. The next best example is the history of Islam following Muhammed. Do you consider Muhammed and the Caliphate that followed him to represent Mainstream Islam?

Quote:

What are we arguing again? Its confusing because you've gone from citing Anjem Choudary - one of those people encouraging "idiots running around blowing things up" as evidence for mainstream islam promoting the "unofficial", "unorganised" type of islamic violence - to now claiming that actually mainstream islam does no such thing. So why did you mention Choudary in the first place again? Can you please at least think your argument through a little better?

Sorry I didn't realise he was encouraging terrorists. I just thought he let of of Islam's little lies slip out to the infidel.

Quote:

Again, your ignorance betrays you. The so called house of war has nothing to do with the quran - it was conceived about a century after the prophet's death. You made the claim "There is nothing in the Koran about how to be the underdog. " - which is laughably untrue - since most of the quran is entirely about muslims being the underdog - and how they should live their lives accordingly.

Yeah about that time. Do you really think it makes sense to equate the early days, when the Islamic community was small, growing and under the direct influence of Muhammed, to the post-Caliphate period where it is crumbling politically and suffering all sorts of internal problems. There is nothing in Islam to help Muslims deal with the current situation.

Quote:

But here's a little exercise for you: look up what official, mainstream islamic bodies say and teach about muslims living in non-muslim lands

No need to. Abu filled me in. It is all very PC. You know, I never could get him to explain the correct procedure for turning such a place into part of the Caliphate.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #21 - May 4^th, 2013 at 10:31pm

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 7:01pm:

<facepalm>

We've been through this before FD. Your muslim sources are entirely Abu and Falah. Who do they speak for? What do they represent?

If you feel these two people accurately reflect mainstream islam, please provide evidence.

Or put it this way - if I was to counter by offering the opinions of two other random muslims that happen to give opposite views of Abu and Falah - would you be satisfied? Of course not.

What are muslims overwhelmingly being taught in mosques and islamic schools and muslim organisations across the western world? The claim is being put out there by, well, just about everyone who frequents this forum, that they are being given the wrong message - an ambivalent message at best, and outright incitement at worst - which causes muslims to go out and be extremists and terrorists. All I'm asking for is some evidence to support this claim. Thats not too much to ask is it?

You are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing - presenting a strawman argument rather than what people have actually said. To put it simply, according to Abu (and lots of other Muslims), Islamic violence is supposed to be effective, structured, state approved etc, with all the relevant paperwork filled out. Islam preaches the organised violence of a militant empire, not idiots running round blowing things up. You can criticise those idiots quite easily without rejecting the principles of Islamic violence. The reason there are so many of those idiots running round blowing things up is because Muhammed never had to deal with a crumbling, then a totally dismantled empire that lacks the authoritative structure to direct the violence towards an end that suits the empire. Muslims are at a loss about how to handle the situation. There is nothing in the Koran about how to be the underdog.

And Abu's authority to proclaim these matters is?

Who authorised him to speak for the majority of Muslims, Freediver?

It's akin to suggesting the Rev. Fred Phelps speaks for the majority of Christians. Roll Eyes

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #22 - May 4^th, 2013 at 10:35pm I granted him the authority. Everyone is allowed to have their say here Brian. Even you are allowed to say what you think mainstream Islam is.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #23 - May 4^th, 2013 at 11:26pm

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

ure. probably the best evidence is the example set by Muhammed.

OK FD, next question, show me where Muhammad's teachings were based on a doctrine of militant expansionism.

But like I said in the OP, the point here is about what muslims themselves believe about the doctrine of islam. It could well be that Abu is entirely correct - and that he alone has the right interpretation of islamic doctrine. But that is still irrelevant if it remains true that the majority of muslims are in fact being taught a message of peace of tolerance (rightly or wrongly). Now I have made a case for mainstream islam believing in a doctrine of peace and tolerance, 2 pages in and I have yet to see any evidence that this is a lie - and that in fact mainstream islam believes and promotes a message of violence and intolerance against non-muslims.

And just to re-emphasise yet again: I'm not asking you to say what you (or Abu) think you know about islamic doctrine, the issue is about what mainstream islam (through representative bodies and leaders) is saying and trying to teach both muslims and non-muslims. I have already given numerous examples of official national representative bodies both in Australian and the UK rejecting and condemning violence, and stressing a peaceful version of islam. You, and just about everyone here, clearly believe they are lying and being duplicitous (one way or another). Yet, you have spectacularly failed to demonstrate with evidence that your claims are well founded. Now I have been very patient here - all I ask is for evidence to be produced that demonstrates that these mainstream bodies are not to be believed when they claim islam is against violence and extremism.

Sadly, but not surprisingly, the best you have come up with, is to argue one unsubstantiated claim by creating two more unsubstantiated claims.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #24 - May 5^th, 2013 at 8:26am

Quote:

OK FD, next question, show me where Muhammad's teachings were based on a doctrine of militant expansionism.

I said his example, not his teachings. Probably the best example of militant expansionism set by Muhammed is the creation of a militant expansionist empire. Sorry, I only have one example for this.

Quote:

But like I said in the OP, the point here is about what muslims themselves believe about the doctrine of islam. It could well be that Abu is entirely correct - and that he alone has the right interpretation of islamic doctrine.

He believes that the majority of Muslims agree with him.

Quote:

Now I have made a case for mainstream islam believing in a doctrine of peace and tolerance

I find it rather strange that you need to 'make a case' for this. All you have presented is media releases about terrorism, and surprise surprise, they do not openly endorse it. Or at least, they do not openly endorse it from within the west. Islamic doctrine openly rejects peace and tolerance. It is all about chopping bits off people if they do the wrong thing (in a nice orderly fashion of course).

Quote:

And just to re-emphasise yet again: I'm not asking you to say what you (or Abu) think you know about islamic doctrine

Of course not. That would make it very difficult for you to make your case, wouldn't it? Much better to demand we use media releases intended for a western audience than Islamic doctrine.

Quote:

the issue is about what mainstream islam (through representative bodies and leaders)

According to Abu there is no such thing.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #25 - May 5^th, 2013 at 9:21am

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2013 at 8:26am:

I find it rather strange that you need to 'make a case' for this. All you have presented is media releases about terrorism, and surprise surprise, they do not openly endorse it. Or at least, they do not openly endorse it from within the west.

Your insinuations are about as subtle as a fart in an elevator.

Muslims are being duplicitous, they don't really believe what they are preaching - yeah I get that. Its a claim you people make, and thus far it is completely unsubstantiated. All I'm asking for is some evidence. The point about me presenting *MY CASE* is to demonstrate that the only message I see coming out of mainstream islam is one of tolerance and rejection of violence. Am I being selective? If you think so, you need to demonstrate that - thats the whole point of this thread. The claim has been made ad nauseum here and elsewhere that islamic terrorism and extremism comes directly from mainstream teachings of islam. I have given you a sample of mainstream islam's purported views on violence and extremism that seemingly contradicts this view. Yes its only a sample and may not give the whole picture. But now its up to you lot to demonstrate how this is not an accurate picture. Its your claim, you need to prove it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #26 - May 5^th, 2013 at 3:09pm

Quote:

Muslims are being duplicitous, they don't really believe what they are preaching - yeah I get that. Its a claim you people make, and thus far it is completely unsubstantiated.

The wiki is full of links to examples of Muslims being duplicitous about Islam right here on this forum.

Quote:

The point about me presenting *MY CASE* is to demonstrate that the only message I see coming out of mainstream islam is one of tolerance and rejection of violence.

If all I looked at was press releases from western PR groups, I'm sure that is all I would see also. For someone who spent pages trying to explain to me why I am only allowed to comment on Islam if I learn Arabic and go back to the original "one and only" source on Islam, this is quite a turnaround.

Quote:

The claim has been made ad nauseum here and elsewhere that islamic terrorism and extremism comes directly from mainstream teachings of islam. I have given you a sample of mainstream islam's purported views on violence and extremism that seemingly contradicts this view. Yes its only a sample and may not give the whole picture. But now its up to you lot to demonstrate how this is not an accurate picture. Its your claim, you need to prove it.

There you go again. It is not my claim at all. It is your strawman. It is not up to anybody else to do anything at all about it.

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« Last Edit: May 5^th, 2013 at 3:14pm by freediver »

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40938	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #27 - May 5^th, 2013 at 3:23pm freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 10:35pm: I granted him the authority. Everyone is allowed to have their say here Brian. Even you are allowed to say what you think mainstream Islam is. You granted him the authority? So, that really means he speaks for the majority of Muslims?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #28 - May 5^th, 2013 at 3:33pm It means he is allowed to speak.
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moses

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #29 - May 5^th, 2013 at 4:26pm

For me it's very clear, mainstream islam supports and advocates radicalism:

My evidence is the fundamental islamic belief that:
Quote:

muhammad was the last and final prophet and messenger of allah, after whom there can be no prophet or messenger.

A distinguished apostle in every aspect was none other than saidina muhammad. He was sent to the world as the last prophet, the final one, after whom no other messenger was to be sent again by allah. This is the reason why he was granted a shari'ah or the law that was perfect and final requiring no revision in the days to come.

For the teaching of the last prophet were to be everbinding, to remain unchanged to the end of time, he was sent as a acme of perfection with over-flowing guidance and resplendent light. There can be no revision of the qur'an.

Well the facts are muhammad's final perfect message, contains literal commands from allah, which urge muslims to perform the most evil barbarities against their fellow man. All this is recorded literally in the qur'an.

If a muslim supports the above belief about muhammad and his doctrine, then they support islamic precepts which urge human rights atrocities.

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