Quote:


How does that work out for you?

Quote:


If you want an opinion on Islam, you ask the ....?

Quote:


I get the point loud and clear. You have done a backflip from insisting that people have to learn Arabic and read and understand the Koran before commenting on Islam, to insisting that people have to instead go by press releases from whatever Islamic groups you deem to be suitable representatives.

Quote:


Sorry, I am a bit confused here. I thought it was about the contents of carefully scripted press releases from selected Islamic organisations. Let me know what you have made up your mind.

Quote:


I have been very careful not to develop my own version, but to rely on versions posited by Muslims instead. To me that makes far more sense than trying to divine the nature of Islam from press releases intended for a non-Muslim audience.

Quote:


Well, let's start with what the topic is. Is it about what Muslims themselves believe, or is it about the contents of carefully scripted press releases targetting a non-Muslim audience? The topic as you have titled it is absurdly nebulous, and you have only added to the confusion since then. If your only point is only that most Muslim representatives in the west don't go round openly condoning terrorism, I am more than happy to concede.

Quote:


Please try to be more politically correct. You are supposed to call it Shariah law.

Quote:


I remembered what the Muslims call it now. A Caliphate.

Quote:


I just realised the answer to the question I posed to Brian. You are supposed to ask the Caliph. As it turns out, religious doctrine in Islam is equated with power. Without that central authority, which for most of Islam's history has guided Muslims, there is no precedent for Muslims to follow when they ask questions like "who should I kill?".

Quote:


Would you mind quoting the actual statement you want me to prove?

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2013 at 7:50pm:


I'm very sorry that you can't understand a most simple concept FD. Let me break it down for you as simply as I can. If I wanted to argue the case that islamic doctrine itself promotes peace and tolerance, I wouldn't have opened my argument by challenging the critics here to provide evidence for their claims that mainstream muslim leaders and organisations believe and promote a message of violence and intolerance to their flock. I suggest you reread my OP, I set out my argument, and how it distinguishes from the doctrinal debate very clearly. For example:

Quote:


Simply put, if I never claimed this thread to be anything other than what muslims themselves believe and teach, and if I have never deviated from that position in this thread - then its not really possible for me to do a backflip is it?

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2013 at 7:50pm:


Correct. That is the starting point. You are insinuating pretty clearly that such releases are nothing but a PR campaign designed to cover up the true teachings of mainstream islam. I merely ask for evidence for this sort of teaching going on. Otherwise, the evidence I have presented - imperfect as it may be - is literally all we have to go by. Oh please FD, prove me wrong and show me how this carefully scripted PR campaign is not representative of what mainstream islam actually teaches.

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2013 at 7:50pm:


No the confusion is on your side - sorry to say. As explained above, my topic is incredibly simple - ie entirely boils down to a request that evidence be supplied demonstrating that the true teachings of mainstream islam is all about violence and intolerance. You continually fail to do so, and instead *YOU* make this very simple topic seem very confusing - by doing things like citing a UK loon as evidence of mainstream islam's hateful message - then in the same breath claim that actually no, these sort of guys aren't actually representative.

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2013 at 7:50pm:


OK, thats a good start. Now perhaps we can get to substantiating your obvious belief that the muslims these PR reps are representing are non-openly preaching a message of hate and violence to their flock. Or if you're willing to concede that, then we can declare this discussion closed and go on our merry way.

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2013 at 7:50pm:


Well I see what you are doing. You are setting this up so that whatever I claim you say, you can simply scream "strawman!".

So instead of playing these infantile games, why don't *YOU* explain to me what your position is regarding the argument that mainstream muslim leaders and organisations actively promote a message of violence and intolerance - which in turn leads extremists to turn to terrorism. From what you oh-so-unsubtly insinuated regarding the public PR messages and the non-public messages, I am assuming that you agree with this argument. If not, then thats great, we have nothing else to debate. If so, then please provide evidence.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 5^th, 2013 at 8:31pm:


Reminds me of a particular academic I know of who writes an article, then, in order to give more credibility to what he's claimed in the article has a pet Congressman in the US read the article, late at night into the US Congressional Record and then quotes the US Congressman in his next article, quoting him!  Such silly shenanigans are of course only done by those who have no actual proof of what they claim, they're just trying to back up their own biased opinion on the topic.   

polite_gandalf wrote on May 5^th, 2013 at 9:20pm:


Zakir Naik does not preach to an insignificant audience, he takes sura 5/32 out of context like you do by leaving out the beginning "we have ordained upon the children of Israel" why do muslims never quote that part of the verse? does it show that verse does not apply to muslims?
www.quran.com/5/32

Here is Zakir Nail saying every muslim should be a terrorist, as he says if he is terrorising a terrorist (the USA) then he is following Islam.


Wafa Sultan is talking about Islamic intolerance in this clip, she is from Syria and its nice to hear a woman's voice from Islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 7:04pm:


I was born in a place called Market Harborough in the fifties. it is only a few miles from Naseby the battle of which gave England the beginnings of Democracy. At the start of the Sixties and then on to the present day successive governments allowed mass migration into the Uk. At first people were imported from India and Pakistan neither of these races were welcomed by the majority of older indigenous Brits. Young people like myself in those days accepted them as equal. Sikh Hindu or Muslim they were the same, just people like all the rest of us! Sikhs Hindus tried to integrate into the mainstream but muslims did not. The first wave of muslim migration I truly believe wanted a better life, they were extremely industrious. The offspring of muslims from migrants of the 50 60ies are the problem that the UK now faces, they are the terrorist they are the fascists the are the killers, they are the problem. They were/are radicalized by Muslim Clerics imported into the UK from Saudi Arabia, the biggest exporter and fund-er of terrorism on the planet today, and also one of the most racist countries ever.

The tide is turning however, Just this week the UKIP has shattered the major parties strangle hold on local government power, Hopefully the human rights charter will be thrown out soon and all people that decide they are above the law will be able to be deported even if they will be killed in there country of birth.

The Pew report has a few detractors already. It says that up to 30% of the 30,000 muslims interviewed believe suicide bombing is legal, that equates to 500 million muslims world wide saying its OK to KILL people who have done nothing wrong.  60% of respondents thought other religions were causing trouble, Problem is they all lived in countries that Muslims made up about 98% of the population. 45% of muslims want to impose  sharia law on non muslims.

gandalf islam stinks always has always will. Give it up and become a man!

http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/138-jake-neuman/1308-alarming-pew-poll-data-o...

My position is that if you want to know what Muslims really think, press releases intended for non-Muslims is the last place you would look. A much better approach is to ask Muslims, but even that is fraught with difficulty, as Abu et al have demonstrated. The survey about Muslims wanting Shariah law is also interesting, though as you have already indicated, the devil is in the details.