Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #375 - Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:46am

Yadda wrote on Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:16am:

Moslem behaviour is not defined by what *YOU* think you know what the ISLAMIC texts say, it is defined by what any rational person that reads those texts, understands those texts mean.

Quite right Yadda. So presumably we would expect the majority of the world's 1.5 billion muslims to go around trying to force non-muslims everywhere to pay the jihzya?

Oh wait they don't?

Hmmm - what does that tell us about "what *MUSLIMS* think they know what the texts say"?

Either they don't believe it gives them a license to go around beheading non-muslims who don't pay the jihzya, or they are willfully defying their islamic duty. Yes?

moses wrote on Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:35am:

Could someone tell me how muslims could extract their own special tax from the rest of the citizens, where muslims are in the miinority?

They don't.

Perhaps we should start imposing a tax on stupidity.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #376 - Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:58am

Yadda wrote on Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:16am:

Quote:

Verse 9:29 of Surah at-tauba is probably the intentionally most misinterpreted verse of the Quran.

This is what it says: -

“Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” S. 9:29 Y. Ali

Dear brother mansour, I totally understand you when you say that this verse promotes violence on a cursory glance. But if you read it carefully you’ll find that it doesn’t. I hope you will be patient enough to be with me throughout the end of this article.

<------
ROFLOL

The argument at;

http://prophetrejectors.wordpress.com/929-at-tauba-of-quran-doesnt-encourage-mus...

.....is our moslem sophistry, AND DECEIT.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

His argument is that not paying Jizya by 'those who believe not in Allah' is the reason that justifies fighting them.

Whereas, it is clear that the reason to fight 'those who believe not in Allah' is BECAUSE THEY 'believe not in Allah' is the reason for fighting them.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth..."

The reference to the payment of the Jizya tax in 9.29 is that the payment of the Jizya tax is the clear sign that those unbelievers have BEEN subdued by moslems.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #377 - Jun 6^th, 2013 at 11:26am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:46am:

Yadda wrote on Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:16am:

Moslem behaviour is not defined by what *YOU* think you know what the ISLAMIC texts say, it is defined by what any rational person that reads those texts, understands those texts mean.

Quite right Yadda. So presumably we would expect the majority of the world's 1.5 billion muslims to go around trying to force non-muslims everywhere to pay the jihzya?

Oh wait they don't?

Hmmm - what does that tell us about "what *MUSLIMS* think they know what the texts say"?

Either they don't believe it gives them a license to go around beheading non-muslims who don't pay the jihzya, or they are willfully defying their islamic duty. Yes?

gandalf,

Your argument is absurd.

Now let me think, what possible reason, would moslems have, NOT to fight against "those who reject Faith" ?

Hmmmmm ?

Could it be because those in 'the house of war', "those who reject Faith" are still stronger than the moslems ?

as per that argument, that is revealed by this moslem scholar......

Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims
London, Sept.8 [2007]
A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
A former Sharia judge in Pakistan's Supreme Court, 64-year-old Usmani, is...a regular visitor to Britain.
Polite and softly spoken....
He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire non-Muslim world was intent on destroying Islam, but justifies an aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

Quote:

Raymond Ibrahim: How Circumstance Dictates Islamic Behavior

[in dealings with infidels, moslems should....]
Preach peace when weak, wage war when strong.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/01/raymond-ibrahim-how-circumstance-dictates-isla...

Quote:

December 31, 2007
Pakistan Cleric: "We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world. We would like to do this by preaching. But if not then we would use force."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019399.php

So i think that it is clear, don't you, gandalf ? .....that moslems are to fight against the unbelievers, where the moslems [the believers] are stronger, but are to use persuasion and deceit against unbelievers, where the unbelievers are stronger than the moslems.

It is a war of attrition.

Moslems are using deceit [and societal parasitism] to weaken us, and to destroy our societal institutions.

But as the guest moslem community grows in strength [influence, and numbers], then overt acts of violence against the host community [and its members] will become more and more frequent.

Again, the war that moslems are fighting against us [the 'infidels'], is a long term, deceitful war of attrition.

+++

We [the West] should just face up to the undeniable truth about ISLAM;
ISLAM is a religion a vicious supremacist political philosophy, which promotes the use of deception, blatant lying, intimidation and extreme violence to further its aims.

But moslems will blatantly, and intentionally, and deceitfully misrepresent ISLAM to a local non-moslem community - moslems will portray ISLAM as a tolerant and peaceful philosophy.

All moslems barefacedly lie, when they communicate with non-believers [while the moslems are still politically impotent] - so as to promote ISLAM's [and their own] interests.

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

google

Google;

taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;

we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

How Taqiyya Alters Islams Rules of War

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #378 - Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 5^th, 2013 at 11:51am:

no my argument is that a majority of muslims absolutely *DO* act as the Quran says - and thats why a majority of muslims don't partake, or support violence in the name of islam.

What is your doctrinal reason for ignoring the bits of the Koran that provide the justification for internal and external bloody violence by Muslims who do not ignore those bits but quote them as the justification for their hideous behaviour?

Why do you ignore those parts of the Koran that Anjem Choudary, say, or any number of crazy fvckers treat as being central to the meaning of th Koran and to being a Muslim?

Who the hell are you, reading the same Koran that they do, to say they are wrong about what Islam means?

It's OK for me - I say the whole of the Koran is nonsense. But you are speaking out of the same source as the crazies (Koran) and you have no authority or reasoned argument to prove them wrong. Because remember - your job is not to prove me wrong about the Koran.

Your job is to prove them wrong. And you are not doing that, pal. You haven't even begun doing that. An you will not do it because you either agree with them or you are afraid of them.
Or you are afraid of Allah and Mohammed who will not tolerate your taking sides against your fellow Muslims.i

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« Last Edit: Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:44pm by Soren »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #379 - Jun 7^th, 2013 at 1:29am

Soren wrote on Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:38pm:

What is your doctrinal reason for ignoring the bits of the Koran that provide the justification for internal and external bloody violence by Muslims who do not ignore those bits but quote them as the justification for their hideous behaviour?

Your premise is flawed. Your premise is that those "bits of the Quran" are genuine calls for committing aggressive violence - including randomly picking out non-muslims, and killing them - for no other reason that they are non-muslims. I cannot answer the charge that I am "ignoring" these bits, because I reject that these bits exist in the first place.

Soren wrote on Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:38pm:

you are speaking out of the same source as the crazies (Koran) and you have no authority or reasoned argument to prove them wrong. Because remember - your job is not to prove me wrong about the Koran.

This is about you not listening when all this proving them wrong stuff is done - remember I explained this to you before? How can I argue with you Soren? You cover you ears and sing "lalalala!" when mainstream muslims stand up and utterly refute the extremists like Anjem Choudary, and those who would seek a doctrinal justification of terrorism and murder. I've already been over this, I'm not going to waste my time with someone who refuses to listen.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #380 - Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:21am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 1:29am:

Soren wrote on Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:38pm:

What is your doctrinal reason for ignoring the bits of the Koran that provide the justification for internal and external bloody violence by Muslims who do not ignore those bits but quote them as the justification for their hideous behaviour?

Your premise is flawed. Your premise is that those "bits of the Quran" are genuine calls for committing aggressive violence - including randomly picking out non-muslims, and killing them - for no other reason that they are non-muslims. I cannot answer the charge that I am "ignoring" these bits, because I reject that these bits exist in the first place.

Not random at all. Rigby was butchered because he was a British soldier.

Quote:

Soren wrote on Jun 6^th, 2013 at 10:38pm:

you are speaking out of the same source as the crazies (Koran) and you have no authority or reasoned argument to prove them wrong. Because remember - your job is not to prove me wrong about the Koran.

This is about you not listening when all this proving them wrong stuff is done - remember I explained this to you before? How can I argue with you Soren? You cover you ears and sing "lalalala!" when mainstream muslims stand up and utterly refute the extremists like Anjem Choudary, and those who would seek a doctrinal justification of terrorism and murder. I've already been over this, I'm not going to waste my time with someone who refuses to listen.

As I keep saying to you - I am a kuffar. I think every version and every interpretation of Islam is wrong.

Your job is to convince the Muslims you disagree with. They are ruining your reputation, not me.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #381 - Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:53am

Soren wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:21am:

As I keep saying to you - I am a kuffar. I think every version and every interpretation of Islam is wrong.

Soren, review your argument. It is anything but a rejection of the extremists version of the texts - quite the opposite. You even posted a video of that non-muslim douchebag arguing about what the terrorist did is entirely consistent with what the quran states.

Soren wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:21am:

Your job is to convince the Muslims you disagree with. They are ruining your reputation, not me.

Its being done Soren - remember the bit about you covering your ears screaming "lalalala"? To give you an idea of how far off you are, remember that little gem of yours when you claimed that no muslim has ever blamed another muslim for hurting a kufr? That claim was made about 2 seconds before I posted a quote from just one of the many muslim leaders calling such a person "scum" who is "offending islam". Thats how credible your argument is.

As for reputation, fortunately, most people in Australia and throughout the west do not share your views about Islam's reputation. Most non-muslims in the west have a positive view of islam and muslims - which has been backed up by numerous surveys.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #382 - Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:06pm

Quote:

I cannot answer the charge that I am "ignoring" these bits, because I reject that these bits exist in the first place.

There it is in a nutshell once again.

An absolute refusal to be honest, and admit to the myriad of literal commands in the qur'an which urge muslims to commit human rights atrocities of the foulest kind.

Absolute proof that muslims do not care how many innocent men, women and children are slaughtered by the true muslim, as they follow islam to the very letter.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #383 - Jun 7^th, 2013 at 11:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:53am:

Soren wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:21am:

As I keep saying to you - I am a kuffar. I think every version and every interpretation of Islam is wrong.

Soren, review your argument. It is anything but a rejection of the extremists version of the texts - quite the opposite.

You even posted a video of that non-muslim......arguing about what the terrorist did is entirely consistent with what the quran states.

'that non-muslim' was being consistent with the truth of the matter then.

Because fighting against those who offend ISLAM [by not being moslems!], is what the Koran requires from moslems.

Whether that 'fighting', is physical fighting, or, in moslems seeking to weaken the resolve and in seeking to diminish the material resources [and strength] of Allah's enemies - so that the moslems can then begin to engage Allah's enemies in actual physical fighting.

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123i
Quote:

Soren wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:21am:

Your job is to convince the Muslims you disagree with. They are ruining your reputation, not me.

Its being done Soren - remember the bit about you covering your ears screaming "lalalala"? To give you an idea of how far off you are, remember that little gem of yours when you claimed that no muslim has ever blamed another muslim for hurting a kufr? That claim was made about 2 seconds before I posted a quote from just one of the many muslim leaders calling such a person "scum" who is "offending islam". Thats how credible your argument is.

And yet, the animosity coming from moslems, always seems to be undiminished by such 'sincere' wrist smacks.

Today, some 'moslem leader' will proclaim that; "We are very stressed to see" ....some moslems being naughty boys.

And tomorrow, someone will satirise Mohammed, and moslems among us will again threaten those who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

Because NOBODY must be allowed to examine and scrutinise ISLAM and its icons, through the medium/lens of public satire.

No moslem [representing the moslem community] is willing to debate those issues about ISLAM that are socially and culturally 'confronting' to non-moslems - because confronting such an important social and cultural examination of ISLAM and its icons, by non-moslem critics can never be allowed by the moslem community.i
Quote:

As for reputation, fortunately, most people in Australia and throughout the west do not share your views about Islam's reputation. Most non-muslims in the west have a positive view of islam and muslims - which has been backed up by numerous surveys.

Well if your statement is true, then that circumstance is a poor reflection upon the cultural perceptions of 'most people in Australia and throughout the west'.

IMO, 'most people in Australia and throughout the west' have lost all discernment in choosing between what is good, and what is wicked - witness in the last 40 years the sudden [and 'unprofitable'] presence of moslem communities, being accommodated in the West !!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #384 - Jun 7^th, 2013 at 11:42pm

moses wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Quote:

I cannot answer the charge that I am "ignoring" these bits, because I reject that these bits exist in the first place.

There it is in a nutshell once again.

An absolute refusal to be honest, and admit to the myriad of literal commands in the qur'an which urge muslims to commit human rights atrocities of the foulest kind.

Absolute proof that muslims do not care how many innocent men, women and children are slaughtered by the true muslim, as they follow islam to the very letter.

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutbi
Democracy is now rising in the M.E., with all of the recent citizen inspired protests/revolutions happening ?

No.

The social disruption which is occurring in the countries of the M.E., is merely a convenient opportunity for the ISLAMISTS to commandeer [highjack] the citizen revolutions that are happening in that region!

"The Koran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader, jihad is our path and death in the name of Allah is our goal."

Morsi - Recently elected ISLAMIST PRESIDENT of Egypt.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #385 - Jun 7^th, 2013 at 11:55pm

moses wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Quote:

I cannot answer the charge that I am "ignoring" these bits, because I reject that these bits exist in the first place.

There it is in a nutshell once again.

An absolute refusal to be honest, and admit to the myriad of literal commands in the qur'an which urge muslims to commit human rights atrocities of the foulest kind.

Absolute proof that muslims do not care how many innocent men, women and children are slaughtered by the true muslim, as they follow islam to the very letter.

Ah - a scholar, is it?

Yes, friends, here we have someone who not only has interpreted an 8th century Arabic text, but has put it into its cultural context, understanding how Muslims from Borneo to Timbuktu interpret these texts and apply them in their lives today.

Not only that, he has - no doubt - read the canon of religious works, from the book of Leviticus to the Bhagivad Gita, and understands full well the thrust of religious war; headhunting, foreskin gathering and Pandeva slaying.

Looks like we have another old boy scholar, friends. Shall we issue the awards?

Wait. I have a challenge. Name one religious order binding all Muslims to carry out atrocities of the foulest kind.

One will do.

Let’s see if you get your award.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95295 Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #386 - Jun 7^th, 2013 at 11:57pm And don’t copy Yadda. No one will read it if you do.
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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #387 - Jun 8^th, 2013 at 1:15pm Quote: Name one religious order binding all Muslims to carry out atrocities of the foulest kind. The literal / perfect word of allah, handed to muhammad: The qur'an
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95295 Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #388 - Jun 8^th, 2013 at 6:38pm moses wrote on Jun 8^th, 2013 at 1:15pm: Quote: Name one religious order binding all Muslims to carry out atrocities of the foulest kind. The literal / perfect word of allah, handed to muhammad: The qur'an Now that’s specific. Which bits?
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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #389 - Jun 8^th, 2013 at 7:13pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 8^th, 2013 at 6:38pm:

moses wrote on Jun 8^th, 2013 at 1:15pm:

Quote:

Name one religious order binding all Muslims to carry out atrocities of the foulest kind.

The literal / perfect word of allah, handed to muhammad:
The qur'an

Now that’s specific. Which bits?

Hey Special K,

Here is somewhere for you to start your examination of the 'bits' of the Koran.......

[n.b. On the right side of the page that loads, all of the topic links are set out for you.]

http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Murder.Islam
Quote:

Murder

Tabari IX:69 "Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us."
Tabari VIII:141 "The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: 'Kill! Kill! Kill!'"
Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive."
Ishaq:489 "Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing."
Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."
Qur'an 33:60 "Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering."
Bukhari:V4B52N270 "Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' Maslama said, 'Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, 'You may do so.'"
Ishaq:368 "Ka'b's body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad's order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet."
Tabari VII:97
Ishaq:368 "We carried Ka'b's head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah's enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf's head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah's Cause. Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.'"

and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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