Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

Adamant

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #45 - May 6^th, 2013 at 3:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 8:13am:

Adamant wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 12:16am:

The offspring of muslims from migrants of the 50 60ies are the problem that the UK now faces, they are the terrorist they are the fascists the are the killers, they are the problem. They were/are radicalized by Muslim Clerics imported into the UK from Saudi Arabia, the biggest exporter and fund-er of terrorism on the planet today, and also one of the most racist countries ever.

So no actual evidence then adamant?

This is the sort of bullshit argument I've grown used to, and which I specifically appealed against throughout this thread.

Oh goodness Gandalf it appears you are nothing more than a shallow flippant moron.

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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%

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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #46 - May 6^th, 2013 at 3:56pm So Sorry gandalf forgot that awful word (bigot).
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #47 - May 6^th, 2013 at 4:04pm sophisticated argument you've got going there adamant. Well done.
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Adamant

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #48 - May 6^th, 2013 at 4:10pm

The only remaining Fat lady is classed as RACIST FOR ASKING DIRECTIONS ON HOW TO GET OUT OF LEICESTER BUT THE fUKCING RACIST MUSLIMS WONT ANSWER HER BECAUSE SHE IS A FILTHY STINKING KUFFA WHITE FEMALE SLUT?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233958/One-Fat-Lady-race-row-Muslim-ghe...

You racist bloody muslims!

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #49 - May 6^th, 2013 at 5:59pm

Gandalf wrote in the opening post:

Quote:

The arguments I've seen here are of two kinds: 1. quotes from the Quran and hadith illustrating islam's supposed violent/extremist doctrinal basis and 2. anecdotes of muslims supporting/carrying out acts of violent extremism.

You guys couldn't prove my point better if you tried.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #50 - May 6^th, 2013 at 7:38pm

Quote:

Because muslims are inherently devious and untrustworthy right?

There are all sorts of reasons. The more absurd examples of Muslim leaders being deliberately deceptive in their press releases is just one of them. Even without that, they would still be a silly place to start looking.

Quote:

What you are demonstrating is a circular argument - basically that muslims cannot be trusted, because they cannot be trusted.

It is not circular. I have plenty of examples.

Quote:

It is based on nothing but baseless prejudice.

And of course, Muslims demonstrating that they are untrustworthy.

Quote:

If there was evidence that you could point to that demonstrate these bodies and organisations hold views that contradict what they are publicly stating, and you presented that, then there might be some validity to your argument.

Unless of course Muslims distanced themselves from any examples of Muslim leaders being exposed as untrustworthy, in which case you would insist it did not count on the grounds that Muslims distanced themselves once it was exposed.

Quote:

But right now, if you trully looked at this objectively you would see that you have no reason not to take their statements at face value.

There are plenty. And even if I did take them at face value, they still do not say a whole lot.

Quote:

The correct way FD (and dare I say the obvious way), is to look at what authorities on the subject are saying. There are schools of islamic jurisprudence that make rulings on any social or political matter you could think of. What the majority of scholars in these schools rule on, then generally becomes the accepted interpretation of islamic law amongst the majority of muslims.

I am aware of that. Abu presented many to back up his interpretation of Islam. That makes more sense than trying to divine Islam from press releases targeted at non-Muslims. Contrary to you caricatures, I did not just rely on the opinion of a few random people. There are thousands of pages of discussion. And not once did Abu suggest we resolve anything by referring to press releases targeting non-Muslims

Quote:

And this is where the internet really becomes handy. Pick any topic related to islam that you are interested in, and you can do a search. You will of course get lots of different answers and interpretations of islamic law, but eventually (but usually very quickly), you will get a good sense of what mainstream muslims are saying and believing. Thats what you would do if you were trully interested in understanding mainstream islamic beliefs and teachings

In other words, you would not rely on press releases targeted at non-Muslims?

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #51 - May 6^th, 2013 at 8:49pm

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 1:08pm:

My position is that if you want to know what Muslims really think, press releases intended for non-Muslims is the last place you would look. A much better approach is to ask Muslims, but even that is fraught with difficulty, as Abu et al have demonstrated. The survey about Muslims wanting Shariah law is also interesting, though as you have already indicated, the devil is in the details.

I wonder FD, how many Muslims have you actually asked, face to face?

I suspect that your only interaction with Muslims has been through the internet and I suspect there has actually been very, very, little of that beyond Gandalf and a few others who have been pointing out the fallacies of your Islamophobic hatreds.

Am I correct?

So, how many Muslims do you actually know, outside the Internet? In real life? None?

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #52 - May 6^th, 2013 at 8:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 12:06pm:

1/.....mainstream islamic scholars, teachers and leaders directly refute the doctrinal basis of islamic extremism

2/ and in fact make a doctrinal case for the opposite view - ie that islamic texts actually promote peace and tolerance.......

......where is the evidence that violence and extremism is institutionalised and manufactured within mainstream islam?

Where?

Read on......

gandalf,

What blatant lies you speak!

Your words are patently false, and intended to deceive the ignorant and the naive.

Why pretend, gandalf ?

Why do you engage in such falsehood, in this forum, gandalf ?

You are a moslem.

You clearly know the truth [about ISLAM's intents].

But like all moslems, you absolutely refuse to acknowledge those wicked intents.

"......where is the evidence that violence and extremism is institutionalised and manufactured within mainstream islam?

"
EXAMPLE #1,

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

"......where is the evidence that violence and extremism is institutionalised and manufactured within mainstream islam?

EXAMPLE #2,

Quote:

Creed of the sword
September 23, 2006
...On the other hand, no less a figure than the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, issued a statement on the official Saudi news service, defending Muslims' divine right to resort to violence: "The spread of Islam has gone through several phases, secret and then public, in Mecca and Medina. God then authorised the faithful to defend themselves and to fight against those fighting them, which amounts to a right legitimised by God. This ... is quite reasonable, and God will not hate it."
...Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric also explained that war was never Islam's ancient founder, the prophet Mohammed's, first choice: "He gave three options: either accept Islam, or surrender and pay tax, and they will be allowed to remain in their land, observing their religion under the protection of Muslims." Thus, according to the Grand Mufti, THE THIRD OPTION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS WAS ONLY A LAST RESORT, IF THEY REFUSED TO CONVERT OR SURRENDER PEACEFULLY TO THE ARMIES OF ISLAM.
...The resulting doctrine of war was described by the great medieval philosopher Ibn Khaldun: "In the Muslim community, the holy war (jihad) is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and the (obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." (The Muqaddimah)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/creed-of-the-sword/story-e6frg6n6-111111225...

"...violence against non-Muslims was only a last resort, if they refused to convert or surrender peacefully to the armies of Islam."

It is so comforting, to know that

"...islamic texts actually promote peace and tolerance"

, and that moslems are really so 'peacefully' inclined.
/sarc off

gandalf,

What lying fingers you have, for typing such a blatant falsehood.

+++

According to ISLAM [and as being commonly confirmed by devout moslems, in conversation among themselves] we 'unbelievers' have 3 options.

Two of those options would secure us and instant 'peace' with ISLAM and moslems.

The three options are;

1/ Surrender - and convert to ISLAM.

2/ Surrender - and live as slaves under moslem political rule [surrendering all of our current rights and freedoms].

3/ Suffer a [never ending] war of attrition, conducted against us, by moslems.

+++

Quote:

"kuffar" = = "...is an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuffar

gandalf,

You refer to yourself as a believer, in God.

But you and yours, will always be the "kuffar".

You and yours, in 'hiding, denying, and covering the truth', are a disgrace among mankind.

ISLAM, ....is a false religion, for a false people.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #53 - May 6^th, 2013 at 8:56pm

*yawn* Still no evidence FD.

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 7:38pm:

The more absurd examples of Muslim leaders being deliberately deceptive in their press releases

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 7:38pm:

Muslims demonstrating that they are untrustworthy.

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 7:38pm:

It is not circular. I have plenty of examples.[ Grin

]

You heap baseless claim upon baseless claim - and then have the spunk to say you have "plenty of examples". Well lets see them FD.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #54 - May 6^th, 2013 at 9:05pm

Yadda wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 8:54pm:

gandalf,

What blatant lies you speak!

Your words are patently false, and intended to deceive the ignorant and the naive.

Hi Yadda

I was getting worried you wouldn't show up.

Kindly reread my opening post. I am not seeking a doctrinal debate, I am looking for evidence that what mainstream muslims claim publicly about the peaceful message of islam isn't their actual genuine belief.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #55 - May 6^th, 2013 at 9:14pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 12:06pm:

From MI5 research regarding the process of islamic radicalisation:

Quote:

Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1

So identifying oneself within the mainstream islamic community in the UK actually protects against violent radicalisation - according to British intelligence.

.......saying mainstream islam is insincere or not serious about stopping extremism is one thing, but where is the evidence that such institutions actively facilitate the extremists/terrorists - especially in light of what the MI5 research claims?

The British government and MI5 have been 'infiltrated' by ISLAMISTS.

Who can deny it ?

"Lets make peace with a fascist philosophy that wants to enslave or kill us."

/sarc off

That is the effective policy of those in Western governments, who want to appease ISLAMISTS [persons who are revealed to be murdering criminal thugs] who now live among them.

Quote:

Former MI5 chief says we [the West] should negotiate a "political" solution with ISLAMISTS.

She believes that a "political" solution is the only way forward, it is the only way to end [moslem] terrorism.

The former MI5 boss wants us to surrender to ISLAM, to secure a "political" peace.

Duh!

U.K.: Former head of MI5 hopes for "political" solution with al-Qaeda, says 9/11 attacks were not an act of war, just a "crime"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/09/uk-former-head-of-mi5-hopes-for-political-solu...

Former MI5 boss wants Al Qaeda settlement
"....Baroness Manningham-Buller says military and security responses to terrorism can only go so far and eventually a political settlement with terror groups is needed.
She says the September 11 attacks were "a crime, not an act of war". "

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-03/mi5-wants-to-talk-with-al-qaeda/2869024

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #56 - May 6^th, 2013 at 9:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 9:05pm:

Yadda wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 8:54pm:

gandalf,

What blatant lies you speak!

Your words are patently false, and intended to deceive the ignorant and the naive.

Hi Yadda

I was getting worried you wouldn't show up.

Kindly reread my opening post. I am not seeking a doctrinal debate,

I am looking for evidence that what mainstream muslims claim publicly about the peaceful message of islam isn't their actual genuine belief.

gandalf,

You can't get any more 'mainstream moslem' than 1/ the Koran, and 2/ Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric.

Both of these 'mainstream moslem' sources declare what they declare.

Enmity and warfare, by moslems, against those who reject ISLAM, is a religious obligation.

What ?

Is the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia not 'mainstream moslem' enough for you ?i

"......where is the evidence that violence and extremism is institutionalised and manufactured within mainstream islam?

EXAMPLE #1,

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

EXAMPLE #2,

Quote:

Creed of the sword
September 23, 2006
...On the other hand, no less a figure than the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, issued a statement on the official Saudi news service, defending Muslims' divine right to resort to violence: "The spread of Islam has gone through several phases, secret and then public, in Mecca and Medina. God then authorised the faithful to defend themselves and to fight against those fighting them, which amounts to a right legitimised by God. This ... is quite reasonable, and God will not hate it."
...Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric also explained that war was never Islam's ancient founder, the prophet Mohammed's, first choice: "He gave three options: either accept Islam, or surrender and pay tax, and they will be allowed to remain in their land, observing their religion under the protection of Muslims." Thus, according to the Grand Mufti, THE THIRD OPTION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS WAS ONLY A LAST RESORT, IF THEY REFUSED TO CONVERT OR SURRENDER PEACEFULLY TO THE ARMIES OF ISLAM.
...The resulting doctrine of war was described by the great medieval philosopher Ibn Khaldun: "In the Muslim community, the holy war (jihad) is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and the (obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." (The Muqaddimah)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/creed-of-the-sword/story-e6frg6n6-111111225...

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #57 - May 6^th, 2013 at 9:25pm

Quote:

I wonder FD, how many Muslims have you actually asked, face to face?

Only one. I don't know that many personally (only one in fact). He associates more with the people who have been a victim of Islam's barbarity.

Quote:

I suspect that your only interaction with Muslims has been through the internet and I suspect there has actually been very, very, little of that beyond Gandalf and a few others who have been pointing out the fallacies of your Islamophobic hatreds.

Actually, the majority of them have been supporting my views. I actually sounded a lot like you before I started talking to Muslims about Islam. But don't let the facts get in the way of the little caricature you are building.

Quote:

You heap baseless claim upon baseless claim - and then have the spunk to say you have "plenty of examples". Well lets see them FD.

The wiki is full of them. I also gave you a good example from a well known Muslim leader. If you want a competition to see who can google Islamic leaders saying stupid, abhorrent things, there are plenty of others here who will oblige. Like I said, I don't see much point.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40938	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #58 - May 6^th, 2013 at 9:33pm Why does Yada type in crayon?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #59 - May 6^th, 2013 at 10:19pm He is here to balance out you thoughtless defense of Islam. The crayons are to balance out your grey demeanor.
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