Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40938	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #60 - May 6^th, 2013 at 10:42pm freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 10:19pm: He is here to balance out you thoughtless defense of Islam. The crayons are to balance out your grey demeanor. You mean one that believes in fairness?
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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #61 - May 7^th, 2013 at 7:18am

Brian Ross wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 9:33pm:

Why does Yada type in crayon?

I'm a very immature person, like a child.

I like crayons!

I'm trying to highlight/emphasise a point.

The facility on OzPol, to use 'crayons' is there, and i choose to sometimes use those 'crayons'.

I am a very annoying person. [n.b. I am not annoyed by any other person. Whenever i feel 'annoyed', i know that i generate those feelings within myself. And we all 'do that'. namaste Tongue

]

....pick one.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #62 - May 7^th, 2013 at 8:12am

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 9:25pm:

The wiki is full of them.

The wiki is full of links to threads in which you and Abu and Falah engage in childish banter. The wiki is full of your spin and baseless slander.

Quote:

I also gave you a good example from a well known Muslim leader.

He is not a well known muslim leader - he is a well known bigot who has never been associated with official islamic bodies or has ever represented mainstream muslims. I have asked for evidence for your claim that he once did, and that he was only "disowned" after his hypocricy was exposed, and you have provided none.

Quote:

If you want a competition to see who can google Islamic leaders saying stupid, abhorrent things, there are plenty of others here who will oblige. Like I said, I don't see much point.

Just some credible evidence that backs up your claim that muslim leaders are "being deliberately deceptive" (in your words). For any person with even a skerrick of common sense, the best place to look for getting an idea of mainstream islamic views, would be the opinions and rulings of the actual authorities on islam who have such an influence on mainstream muslim views. Not two random guys on an internet forum.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #63 - May 7^th, 2013 at 9:38am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 12:06pm:

If, as I contend, the mainstream muslim population believe in a tolerant/peaceful islamic doctrine, then how can it be argued that mainstream islam is facilitating extremism in islam?

'Mainstream and moslem', like Turkish PM Erdogan ?

I still think that current Turkish PM Erdogan, 'nailed it', in revealing what 'pure' ISLAM is really about.....

example....
'One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular'

Those are the words of the *current* Turkish PM....

article....

Quote:

May 23, 2007
Turkish PM Erdogan in Speech During Term As Istanbul Mayor Attacks Turkey's Constitution, Describing it As 'A Huge Lie':
'Sovereignty Belongs Unconditionally and Always To Allah';
'One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular'

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD159607

Moselm cadres [men, women, and children] do not come to Western nations for a better life.

Moselms come to Western nations, to bring ISLAM into the heart of the enemy of Allah...

Quote:

Turkish PM to Muslims in Germany: "Assimilation is a crime against humanity"

Cologne, Germany -- A crowd of 16,000 expatriate Turks cheered Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan at a vast indoor auditorium in Germany on Sunday as he told them to resist assimilation into the West.

...."Assimilation is a crime against humanity," he told the crowd. Many Turks had travelled from France, Belgium and the Netherlands to hear his hour-long address in the shiny venue, the Koelnarena.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/02/turkish-pm-to-muslims-in-germany-assimilation-...

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #64 - May 7^th, 2013 at 9:46am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 12:06pm:

Secondly, we have all seen the anecdotes - the beheading placards, gruesome pictures of victims of terrorism, so called "clerics" talking about violence and jihad etc etc.

All individual cases - which are irrelevant if they can't demonstrate an overall trend in behaviour within mainstream islam.

How absurd your argument is, gandalf.

To proffer such an argument, as proof that ISLAM does not encourage moslems to murder persons who reject ISLAM!!

1/
It can be seen that ISLAM's foundation religious texts blatantly encourage moslems to murder persons who reject ISLAM!!
[....doctrinally, such slaughterings are called Jihad, or, 'the cause of Allah']

2/
There is ample examples of moslems [being overheard, and discovered] encouraging each other to murder persons who reject ISLAM!!
[....and this confirms what we might reasonable suspect, that moslems will speak freely about real ISLAMIC intents, when moslems imagine that they are speaking to only a moslem audience.]

3/
And there is ample examples of moslems murdering persons who reject ISLAM!!

How can such evidence within ISLAM's foundation religious texts, and such behaviour by moslems, be called 'irrelevant' ?

Such circumstances would only be called 'irrelevant', by a person trying to practice 'religious' deceit.

Such 'religious' deciet is doctrinal [i.e. 'religiously' approved by ISLAM], and it is called, taqiyya.

THE TRUTH ABOUT MOSLEMS;

When moslems talk among themselves, moslems typically will speak unguardedly, about their relationship and intents towards 'disbelievers'.

But when communicating with 'disbelievers' directly, moslems typically, ARE LIARS, and will barefacedly lie to and deceive 'disbelievers'. Google; taqiyya

And moslems will blatantly, and intentionally, and deceitfully misrepresent ISLAM to 'disbelievers', whenever moslems are talking to 'disbelievers' about ISLAM.

e.g.
Google;

undercover mosque

Google;

taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;

we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

How Taqiyya Alters Islams Rules of War

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #65 - May 7^th, 2013 at 9:53am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 12:06pm:

Of course it should go without saying that for every anecdote of support for violence, 10 others can be found rejecting and condemning it. Such infantile games prove nothing.

In short, where is the evidence that violence and extremism is institutionalised and manufactured within mainstream islam?

Such views simply prove your ARROGANCE, gandalf.

Proving that you believe that the average non-moslem is an imbecile who will believe any lie that the moslem community will proffer.

"....where is the evidence that violence and extremism is institutionalised and manufactured within mainstream islam?"

Google on YouTube;
undercover mosque

Watch the declarations of enmity towards all 'disbelievers', come out of the mouths of moslems, when they are speaking among themselves.

THE RELIGION OF PEACE

http://thereligionofpeace.com/

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #66 - May 7^th, 2013 at 12:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 9:05pm:

Kindly reread my opening post. I am not seeking a doctrinal debate, I am looking for evidence that what mainstream muslims claim publicly about the peaceful message of islam isn't their actual genuine belief.

Muslims are around 1-2% of our population, perhaps it is better to look at places where muslims are the majority if we want to see their belief in action.

Quote:

Riot police battle Islamists in Bangladesh

Clashes between police and islamist protestors in the Bangladeshi capital have left at least 3 people dead and 60 injured

Up to half a million Hefazat-e-Islam supporters gathered in the city where the rioters set fire to shops and vehicles.

The activists are calling for those who insult Islam to face the death penalty.

Chanting Allahu akbar and one point one demand,Atheists must be hanged

The area around the city centres largest mosque turned into a battleground..

Read more here-www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22418379

There are 7 countries with Islam as the state religion, all 7 of them execute people for the crime of atheism.

Islam is the only religion that still routinely kills people for disbelief in the absurd fairy tales found in the Quran and hadith.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #67 - May 7^th, 2013 at 12:46pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 8:49pm:

I suspect that your only interaction with Muslims has been through the internet and I suspect there has actually been very, very, little of that beyond Gandalf and a few others who have been pointing out the fallacies of your Islamophobic hatreds.

So, how many Muslims do you actually know, outside the Internet? In real life? None?

The term Islamophobia is both technically and logically incorrect which is to be expected from political Islam and their useful idiot supporters.

Islam is an ideology , a set of beliefs that guide life for muslims, it is a fallacy that one can be phobic of beliefs.

Islam still has the death penalty for apostasy in 7 Islamic countries, they chop your head off for leaving Islam in the homeland of Islam Saudi Arabia and they hang apostates in Iran.

Here is the good sheik telling us why apostates are to be executed-
Quote:

And the messenger of Allah has commanded us to execute the apostate as in the hadith "whoever changes his religion ,execute him.
Islamic source-www.islamqa.com/en/ref/20327/apostate

Phobias are an irrational fear, do you think atheists in Islamic parts of the world have an irrational fear of Islam when 7 Islamic countries with Islam as the state religion execute people for the crime of atheism?

I know over a dozen ex muslims who have to pretend to be muslim due to the death penalty for apostasy.

You are morally bankrupt in supporting a belief that executes people for the crime of disbelief.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #68 - May 7^th, 2013 at 12:54pm

Yadda wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 9:38am:

Mainstream and moslem', like Turkish PM Erdogan ?

I still think that current Turkish PM Erdogan, 'nailed it', in revealing what 'pure' ISLAM is really about.....

example....
'One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular'

Those are the words of the *current* Turkish PM....

So Yadda responds to the claim that mainstream islam is tolerant and peaceful by quoting Erdogan who said that you cannot be muslim and secular.

What does that actually mean Yadda?

Is he saying that democracy is out?

apparently not:

Quote:

“Islam and democracy are not contradictory. A Muslim can run a state very successfully,”

Read more: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2011/Sep-16/148879-erdogan-islam-and-democracy-are-compatible.ashx#ixzz2SZTYrpTg
(The Daily Star :: Lebanon News :: http://www.dailystar.com.lb)

and on democratic principles, with specific reference to Egypt:

Quote:

“I am a non-secular Muslim,” he said, “but I am the prime minister of a secular state and I say, ‘I hope there will be a secular state in Egypt.’ One must not be afraid of secularism. Egypt will grow in democracy and those called upon to draw up the constitution must understand it must respect all religions, while also keep themselves equidistant from the followers of all religions so that people can live in security.”

http://www.resetdoc.org/story/00000021750

I don't think you really thought through your point Yadda. Your knee jerk reaction was to quote some muslim saying he's not a "secularist" and automatically interpret that as "intolerant" or "anti-democracy".

I think its fair to say that Erdogan's beef, in that context, is Turkey's more militant form of secularism - where for example islamic headscarfs are banned for public servants.

But then again, what muslims say is "totally irrelevant" right Yadda? Roll Eyes

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #69 - May 7^th, 2013 at 1:11pm

Quote:

The wiki is full of links to threads in which you and Abu and Falah engage in childish banter. The wiki is full of your spin and baseless slander.

Unlike you, Abu actually found out what Islamic law is on the difficult issues and posted this, often with justification for his views where requested. Childish banter would be if he demanded I google press releases targeted at non-Muslims instead.

Quote:

Just some credible evidence that backs up your claim that muslim leaders are "being deliberately deceptive" (in your words).

What about the ones who say Islam is peace while Australian Muslims march through Sydney and Melbourne behind placards calling for the death penalty for someone who made a silly video.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #70 - May 7^th, 2013 at 1:28pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 12:54pm:

Yadda wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 9:38am:

Mainstream and moslem', like Turkish PM Erdogan ?

I still think that current Turkish PM Erdogan, 'nailed it', in revealing what 'pure' ISLAM is really about.....

example....
'One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular'

Those are the words of the *current* Turkish PM....

So Yadda responds to the claim that mainstream islam is tolerant and peaceful by quoting Erdogan who said that you cannot be muslim and secular.

What does that actually mean Yadda?

Is he saying that democracy is out?

apparently not:

I think its fair to say that Erdogan's beef, in that context, is Turkey's more militant form of secularism - where for example islamic headscarfs are banned for public servants.

Was it the last caliph Kemal Ataturk who told the men to shave their beards and the women to remove the hijab, why do muslims ignore the words of the last man who was the central authority in Islam,is it because he was from a different sect?

Quote:

Democracy is a man made system, meaning rule by the people for the people, thus it is contrary to Islam,because rule is for allah and it is not possible to give legislative rights to any human being, no matter who he is.
Source-www.islamqa.com/en/ref/107166/democracy

The good sheik says democracy is not compatible with Islam.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #71 - May 7^th, 2013 at 2:23pm

freediver wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 1:11pm:

Unlike you, Abu actually found out what Islamic law is on the difficult issues and posted this, often with justification for his views where requested.

Ah I see. Funny, I seem to recall making literally hundreds of posts on this forum "finding out what islamic law is on the difficult issues" - and posting it with justification - quranic quotes and opinions of authoritative jurists. Has the last few months here escaped your memory FD? Endless discussions on blasphemy laws, rape, domestic violence? No recollection? Neither have I once told you to google press releases - just the opposite in fact (ie find me evidence that contradicts these press releases). Congratulations on missing the entire point of this thread.

freediver wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 1:11pm:

What about the ones who say Islam is peace while Australian Muslims march through Sydney and Melbourne behind placards calling for the death penalty for someone who made a silly video.

what all 200 or so of them - of which maybe 40-50 were actually violent? Do you consider that representative of the Australian muslim community? How many Australian muslims do you think there are (hint - almost half a million).

Baronvonrort wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 1:28pm:

The good sheik says democracy is not compatible with Islam.

Erdogan (for one) disagrees.

While I appreciate you going and doing what FD refuses to (find something resembling evidence), I don't quite see the link between opposing democracy and promoting violence/terrorism. Of course it can be inferred, with some leaps in logic, but that could only be done by dismissing the numerous commands to tolerate and coexist with non-muslims and non-muslim values that are present in islamic law. Also, what you didn't mention was that within that fatwa, there is a concession that in a non-muslim democratic society, in order to stand up for islam, muslims have no choice but to participate in that democracy:

Quote:

Some scholars are even of the view that getting involved in these elections is obligatory.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about the ruling on elections, and he replied: I think that elections are obligatory; we should appoint the one who we think is good, because if the good people abstain, who will take their place? Evil people will take their place, or neutral people in whom there is neither good nor evil, but they follow everyone who makes noise. So we have no choice but to choose those who we think are fit.

If someone were to say: We chose someone but most of the parliament are not like that,

We say: It does not matter. If Allaah blesses this one person and enables him to speak the truth in this parliament, he will undoubtedly have an effect. But what we need is to be sincere towards Allaah and the problem is that we rely too much on physical means and we do not listen to what Allaah says. So nominate the one who you think is good, and put your trust in Allaah.

In practical terms, we are talking about muslim populations in the west that will never hope (not in the near future) to have the numbers to challenge the status quo. Therefore the only practical solution in terms of giving islam a voice in society, is to ensure that islam is represented in the political process.

There is certainly nothing inherent in this approach that could be construed as promoting violence/terrorism.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #72 - May 7^th, 2013 at 7:52pm

Quote:

Ah I see. Funny, I seem to recall making literally hundreds of posts on this forum "finding out what islamic law is on the difficult issues" - and posting it with justification - quranic quotes and opinions of authoritative jurists. Has the last few months here escaped your memory FD?

I seem to recall most of the key points on which you disagreed with Abu all came down you you not knowing the answer.

Quote:

what all 200 or so of them - of which maybe 40-50 were actually violent?

You are missing the point Gandalf. The point was not that some were actually violent. The point is that violence and the dismantling of freedom and democracy has widespread support among the "mainstream" Muslim community. They do not have to beat up non-Muslims in some back alley to demonstrate this.

Quote:

While I appreciate you going and doing what FD refuses to (find something resembling evidence), I don't quite see the link between opposing democracy and promoting violence/terrorism.

It is the first step. Obviously anyone who opposes democracy does not have our welfare at heart and only the most naive or unscrupulous (or Muslim) would attempt to argue otherwise.

Quote:

Of course it can be inferred, with some leaps in logic, but that could only be done by dismissing the numerous commands to tolerate and coexist with non-muslims and non-muslim values that are present in islamic law.

Ins ome contexts Muslims are supposed to put up with it. In others, not. That the violence is only "supposed" to come out of the bag in appropriate circumstances does not mean these people oppose violence. It merely means that they oppose violence when it does not suit their ends.

Quote:

In practical terms, we are talking about muslim populations in the west that will never hope (not in the near future) to have the numbers to challenge the status quo.

Abu pulled out this little line as well. Would you accept the same argument from a Nazi? Why should we accept it as saying that Muslims oppose what Islam stands for? Again, it just means they only support violence when it is useful to them. You might as well insist that Muslims are peaceful because they don't like losing wars.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21612 A cat with a view	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #73 - May 7^th, 2013 at 8:40pm sorry, double post my BigBond wifi connection is sh it atm [often!!!], unable to make reliable posts sometimes
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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #74 - May 7^th, 2013 at 8:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 12:54pm:

Yadda wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 9:38am:

Mainstream and moslem', like Turkish PM Erdogan ?

I still think that current Turkish PM Erdogan, 'nailed it', in revealing what 'pure' ISLAM is really about.....

example....
'One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular'

Those are the words of the *current* Turkish PM....

So Yadda responds to the claim that mainstream islam is tolerant and peaceful by quoting Erdogan who said that you cannot be muslim and secular.

What does that actually mean Yadda?

Hmmmm.

Let me think, gandalf.

A prominent world figure, an ISLAMIST, declares that;

'One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular'

And Allah's prophet declares;

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Hmmmmm.

What can it all mean, gandalf ???

i

Quote:

and on democratic principles, with specific reference to Egypt:

Quote:

“I am a non-secular Muslim,” he said, “but I am the prime minister of a secular state and I say, ‘I hope there will be a secular state in Egypt.’ One must not be afraid of secularism. Egypt will grow in democracy and those called upon to draw up the constitution must understand it must respect all religions, while also keep themselves equidistant from the followers of all religions so that people can live in security.”

http://www.resetdoc.org/story/00000021750

Well i am surprised, gandalf.

n.b.
In the article above, a moslem says one thing.

And n.b.....
And yet in the article below, the very same moslem, says something completely different.

Quote:

May 23, 2007
Turkish PM Erdogan in Speech During Term As Istanbul Mayor Attacks Turkey's Constitution, Describing it As 'A Huge Lie':
'Sovereignty Belongs Unconditionally and Always To Allah';
'One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular'

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD159607

Hmmmmm.

Do you think that Erdogan maybe, could have been, LYING, to his audiences, gandalf ???

Do you think ?

Quote:

I don't think you really thought through your point Yadda. Your knee jerk reaction was to quote some muslim saying he's not a "secularist" and automatically interpret that as "intolerant" or "anti-democracy".

I think its fair to say that Erdogan's beef, in that context, is Turkey's more militant form of secularism - where for example islamic headscarfs are banned for public servants.

But then again, what muslims say is "totally irrelevant" right Yadda? Roll Eyes

What moslems say is "totally irrelevant".

True.

And why.

Because moslems are so deceitful, so often, it is impossible to tell when a moslem is being sincere. [witness the TWO differing statements made by Erdogan, relating to governmental sovereignty, cited above]

So it is totally irrelevant [i.e. foolish], for any person to rely upon the statements which a moslem [ANY moslem] makes.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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