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Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? (Read 61531 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #75 - May 7th, 2013 at 9:32pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 7:52pm:
The point is that violence and the dismantling of freedom and democracy has widespread support among the "mainstream" Muslim community.


How exactly does this incident make this "point"? Has a few dozen extremists from any other groups ever gone on a riot before? Would we automatically draw the conclusion from those that it means their activity has "widespread" support among their community? How often does this sort of muslim rioting go on in Australia?

freediver wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 7:52pm:
They do not have to beat up non-Muslims in some back alley to demonstrate this.


Evidently they don't have to do anything at all for people like you to draw your baseless conclusions.

freediver wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 7:52pm:
That the violence is only "supposed" to come out of the bag in appropriate circumstances does not mean these people oppose violence. It merely means that they oppose violence when it does not suit their ends.


Look I get your point FD, and I'm *NOT* debating whether or not islamic law commands such things. I'm just asking for evidence that muslims actually believe it - and that mainstream islamic bodies and leaders go out and promote such a message to their flock. The theory is fine (for the purposes of this discussion) - we just need some evidence this is the message muslims on the whole accept and promote.

freediver wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 7:52pm:
Abu pulled out this little line as well. Would you accept the same argument from a Nazi? Why should we accept it as saying that Muslims oppose what Islam stands for? Again, it just means they only support violence when it is useful to them. You might as well insist that Muslims are peaceful because they don't like losing wars.


The premise of your argument is that muslims have aggression and oppression of non muslims as their ultimate end game. Again, there is no evidence that muslims on the whole believe this is required, let alone go out and preach it. In fact, there is a well known doctrine in islam that is specifically outlined in the Quran, known as obeying the law of the land:

Quote:
Whether it is in the Armed Forces or other fields, Muslims have a responsibility to make a positive contribution to this country. Not only will this enable Muslims to fulfil their duties as citizens, it should help to promote a greater appreciation of Islam among the indigenous population.

For Muslims, assimilation should come naturally, not least because the celebration of diversity was originated by Islam itself. When the Holy Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, won the hearts and minds of Arabia, he created a single and unified, but ideologically diverse, state that removed local tribal prejudices and ensured a healthy integration of rich and poor, black and white, people of different languages and dialects, those belonging to various cultures and indeed faiths.

http://www.free-islamic-course.org/Loyalty.html
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Yadda
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #76 - May 7th, 2013 at 9:55pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 9:32pm:

freediver wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 7:52pm:
Abu pulled out this little line as well. Would you accept the same argument from a Nazi? Why should we accept it as saying that Muslims oppose what Islam stands for? Again, it just means they only support violence when it is useful to them. You might as well insist that Muslims are peaceful because they don't like losing wars.


The premise of your argument is that muslims have aggression and oppression of non muslims as their ultimate end game. Again, there is no evidence that muslims on the whole believe this is required, let alone go out and preach it. In fact, there is a well known doctrine in islam that is specifically outlined in the Quran, known as obeying the law of the land:

Quote:
Whether it is in the Armed Forces or other fields, Muslims have a responsibility to make a positive contribution to this country. Not only will this enable Muslims to fulfil their duties as citizens, it should help to promote a greater appreciation of Islam among the indigenous population.

For Muslims, assimilation should come naturally, not least because the celebration of diversity was originated by Islam itself. When the Holy Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, won the hearts and minds of Arabia, he created a single and unified, but ideologically diverse, state that removed local tribal prejudices and ensured a healthy integration of rich and poor, black and white, people of different languages and dialects, those belonging to various cultures and indeed faiths.

http://www.free-islamic-course.org/Loyalty.html




More lies.

More moslem revision of ISLAMIC history.






gandalf,

THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED CONTRADICTS YOUR CLAP TRAP

Dictionary;
Sunna = = the traditional portion of Muslim law based on Muhammad’s words or acts, accepted (together with the Koran) as authoritative by Muslims.


AND HERE IT IS.....

posted somewhere by Yadda.....
Quote:

Moslems living in the West, can surely accept that it is merely COMMON-SENSE, and natural JUSTICE, that we expect moslems living in the West should integrate fully with our culture, and accept the culture of the West, in just the same way as Mohammed insisted that non-moslems living in Arabia must accept ISLAM, OR LEAVE ARABIA....

And here the words of Mohammed, speaking to Arabian Jews......

"While we were in the mosque, Allah's Apostle came out to us and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews."....The Prophet stood up and addressed them, "O Assembly of Jews! Embrace Islam and you will be safe!" The Jews replied, "O Aba-l-Qasim! You have conveyed Allah's message to us." The Prophet said, "That is what I want (from you)." He repeated his first statement for the second time, and they said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-l-Qasim." Then he said it for the third time and added, "You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to exile you from this land, so whoever among you owns some property, can sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.085.077
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.053.392







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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #77 - May 7th, 2013 at 10:01pm
 
Yadda wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 9:55pm:

posted somewhere by Yadda.....

Quote:

Moslems living in the West, can surely accept that.......








HERE.....

the Sydney protests
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1347877739/215#215

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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freediver
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #78 - May 7th, 2013 at 10:32pm
 
Quote:
How exactly does this incident make this "point"? Has a few dozen extremists from any other groups ever gone on a riot before?


Probably. Muslims, Nazis, NAMBLA etc. That's what happens with extremist groups. Why?

Quote:
Would we automatically draw the conclusion from those that it means their activity has "widespread" support among their community?


Yes. Unless of course someone issued a press release vaguely distancing the community from unspecified aspects of the protest. Then you would know it is just a few bad apples and not a sign of bigger problems.

Quote:
Look I get your point FD, and I'm *NOT* debating whether or not islamic law commands such things.


Right. That would be Brian. I do wish he would talk to Muslims about Islam rather than trying to divine Islam from these press releases, don't you?

Quote:
I'm just asking for evidence that muslims actually believe it


Like with the survey on Shariah law (and all the press releases), it doesn't say much if you are not more specific about "it". Me personally, if I wanted to know what Muslims believe, I would ask Muslims. Not all at once, as it is hard to round them up like that. So I settle for one at a time. I even asked you what you think, even though I thought at first you were just a sympathiser like Brian.

Quote:
and that mainstream islamic bodies and leaders go out and promote such a message to their flock.


It always comes down to people Gandalf. Individuals.

Quote:
The premise of your argument is that muslims have aggression and oppression of non muslims as their ultimate end game.


It is far broader than that. But yes, Muslims have already demonstrated their ability to cleans society.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #79 - May 7th, 2013 at 11:18pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 10:32pm:
Yes. Unless of course someone issued a press release vaguely distancing the community from unspecified aspects of the protest. Then you would know it is just a few bad apples and not a sign of bigger problems.


I see. A couple of hundred thugs in the only rally of its kind in Australia demonstrates "widespread" support for violence amongst the muslim community.  Tongue

Also, it was not a press release, it was a press conference - big difference. Moreover they were very specific about what they condemned, and took full responsibility for what they termed their "shortcomings" in not "engaging" adequately with the perpetrators.

freediver wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 10:32pm:
t doesn't say much if you are not more specific about "it".


Grin "it" was defined by you FD. It is your claim that "violence [etc]" is "widespread" in the mainstream muslim community. And yes I absolutely agree that it is horribly vague and meaningless - perhaps you could do the clarifying rather than asking me to clarify your own confused definitions.  Cheesy

freediver wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 10:32pm:
Me personally, if I wanted to know what Muslims believe, I would ask Muslims


Fantastic idea! But of course you can only do this by picking two random guys who just happen to be on the more extreme end, and you must never under any circumstances compare those views with a single other muslim who might have a different interpretation. And you must accept the opinions of these two random guys as gospel truth, and assume without question that every single muslim on earth agrees with them to the letter.

Thats the correct way of "asking muslims"  Smiley

freediver wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 10:32pm:
It always comes down to people Gandalf. Individuals.


Couldn't agree more. Listen to that whistling sound above you as the irony passes clear over your head.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #80 - May 8th, 2013 at 12:07am
 
Yadda wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 7:18am:
Brian Ross wrote on May 6th, 2013 at 9:33pm:

Why does Yada type in crayon?
   Roll Eyes





I'm a very immature person, like a child.


I had noticed, Yada.  Why are you playing with the grownups then, if you lack the maturity to use the tools you're given, responsibly?

Quote:
I like crayons!

I'm trying to highlight/emphasise a point.

The facility on OzPol, to use 'crayons' is there, and i choose to sometimes use those 'crayons'.

I am a very annoying person. 


Yes.  Which is why this will be perhaps the last time I reply to one of your posts.

Quote:
    [n.b.     I am not annoyed by any other person.   Whenever i feel 'annoyed', i know that i generate those feelings within myself.    And we all 'do that'.    namaste        Tongue    ]


Unless they are Muslim it seems...   Roll Eyes

For someone purporting to be a Buddhist, you don't seem to have progressed far along your path to enlightenment...

Alvida!
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moses
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #81 - May 8th, 2013 at 6:47pm
 
I say that muslims bastardising the meaning of words, plus their outright lying encourages extremism / terrorism.

Consider the much touted muslim lie, that the violence in the qur'an is referring to muslims defending themselves against the aggressor. 

This lie and apologist propaganda is refuted by historical evidence.

History verifies the following chronology of early islamic aggression

Mecca conquered 630

Persia conquered 637

Syria conquered 639

Egypt conquered 641

Cyprus conquered 649

Spain invaded 711

Defeated in France 732
Mecca conquered 630 The muslims led by mohammed invade and defeat Mecca
Conquest of Persia: 636-651 In the reign of Yazdegerd III, the last Sassanid ruler of Persia, a Muslim invasion force secured a decisive defeat of the Persian army at the Battle of al-Qādisiyyah in 636. But the final military victory didn't come until 642 when the Persian army was destroyed at Nahavand (Nehavand). Then, in 651, Yazdgird III was murdered at Merv, present-day Turkmenistan, ending the dynasty. His son Pirooz and many others fled into exile in China.

Islamic conquest of Egypt 639-641  An army of some 4,000 Arabs, led by Amr ibn al-As, was sent by the Caliph Umar to spread Islam in the land of the ancient pharaohs. The Arabs crossed into Egypt from Palestine in December 639 and advanced rapidly into the Nile Delta. The imperial garrisons retreated into the walled towns, where they successfully held out for a year or more. But the Arabs sent for reinforcements and the invading army, joined by another 12,000 men in 640, defeated a Byzantine army at the battle of Heliopolis. Amr next proceeded in the direction of Alexandria, which was surrendered to him by a treaty signed on November 8, 641.

Cyprus Invasion In 649 AD  Arabs sailed with a big armada under the leadership of Muawiya against Cyprus. They conquered and sacked the capital Salamis - Constantia after a brief siege and pillaged the rest of the island. In the course of this expedition a relative of the Prophet, Umm-Haram fell from her mule near the Salt Lake at Larnaca and was killed. She was buried in that spot and much later in 1816 the Hala Sultan Tekke was built there by the Turks.
In 654 AD the second Arab invasion took place that devastated the island again. This time, however, a garrison of 12,000 men was left in Cyprus, an indication of their intentions to incorporate it into the Moslem world.

Conquest of Afghanistan: 637-709  In 637, five years after the death of Muhammad, Arab Muslims had shattered the might of the Persian Sassanians and began to move towards the lands east of Iran: Herat was captured in 652. By 709 all of Aryana came under Arab control. Regions around Kabul were annexed from the Hindu Shahis as well

Conquest of Iberia: 711-718 The conquest of Iberia commenced when the Moors (mostly Berbers with some Arabs) invaded Visigothic Christian Iberia in the year 711 CE. Under their Berber leader, Tariq ibn Ziyad, they landed at Gibraltar on April 30 and worked their way northward. Tariq's forces were joined the next year by those of his superior, Musa ibn Nusair. During the eight-year campaign most of the Iberian Peninsula was brought under Islamic rule—save for small areas in the northwest (Asturias) and largely Basque regions in the Pyrenees. This territory, under the Arab name Al-Andalus, became part of the expanding Umayyad empire.

Muslim Spain  In the 8th century, nearly all the Iberian peninsula, which had been under Visigothic rule, was quickly conquered (711 - 718), by Muslims (the Moors), who had crossed over from North Africa. Visigothic Spain was the last of a series of Christian and pagan lands conquered in a great westward charge from the Middle East and across north Africa by the religiously inspired armies of the Umayyad empire.

Indeed this onslaught continued northwards until islam was decisively defeated in central France at the Battle of Tours in 732.

So the truth is muslims were the aggressors, muslims bastardised the meaning of of the word oppression to mean that if someone resisted them and rejected islam, they were stoping muslims from practicing their belief.

Consider the next islamic lie, muslims are martyrs.

A martyr is someone who is killed for not renouncing his / her particular faith.

Again we see that lying muslims have bastardised the meaning of the word martyr, to mean an islamic killer who has died while slaughtering innocent men, women and children, who hold a different view to the muslim terrorist.

The evidence is overwhelming that mainstream islam and it's apologists, support, encourage and excuses islamic extremism.
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freediver
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #82 - May 8th, 2013 at 7:42pm
 
Quote:
I see. A couple of hundred thugs in the only rally of its kind in Australia demonstrates "widespread" support for violence amongst the muslim community.


Sure. Have you ever seen a rally in which 100% of the people who support it turn up? For a tiny minority to get that many people marching through the street is actually fairly impressive.

Quote:
Also, it was not a press release, it was a press conference - big difference.


Is this like Abbott's explanation of when he can tell the truth?

Quote:
Moreover they were very specific about what they condemned, and took full responsibility for what they termed their "shortcomings" in not "engaging" adequately with the perpetrators.


Were there more of the 'good guys' than the bad guys?

Quote:
"it" was defined by you FD. It is your claim that "violence [etc]" is "widespread" in the mainstream muslim community.


I'm pretty sure I would not mince my words into something that absurd. Please quote what I actually say. Then read it and try to understand it. If I quoted you one word at a time I could make you say anything. It's not exactly a clever trick.

Quote:
Fantastic idea! But of course you can only do this by picking two random guys who just happen to be on the more extreme end


I'm glad you realise there was more than one. That took you long enough. Next step is you realising there were more than two.
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #83 - May 8th, 2013 at 7:57pm
 
Lets even that up a little bit and see what the touch-feely, lovey-dovey Peaceful Christian religion got up to, shall we?

First Crusade (1095–1099)
Second Crusade (1147–1149)
Third Crusade (1187–1192)
Fourth Crusade (1202–1204)
Fifth Crusade (1217–1221)
Sixth Crusade (1228–1229)
Seventh Crusade (1248–1254)

Reconquista (1085-1492)

Albigensian Crusade (1208-1229)
The Hussite Crusade(s) (1419 to circa 1434)

Conquest of the Americas (1492-1898)

Persecution of the Huguenots (1559-1598)

The Thirty Years Wars (1618–1648)

European Imperialism in Asia and Africa (Late 16th thru to mid 20th centuries)

All inspired in part by Christianity...  Hundreds of millions killed in the name of Christ.   Roll Eyes
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #84 - May 8th, 2013 at 8:02pm
 
So Brian, how often do I have to interject with a criticism of some historical attrocity by Christianity to avoid being labelled a bigot?

Why is it only necessary to balance criticism of Islam with criticism of Christianity and no other ideologies?

Why are you incapable of responding to these very simple questions?
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moses
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #85 - May 8th, 2013 at 8:12pm
 
Brian Ross wrote;
Quote:
Lets even that up a little bit and see what the touch-feely, lovey-dovey Peaceful Christian religion got up to, shall we?

First Crusade (1095–1099)
Second Crusade (1147–1149)
Third Crusade (1187–1192)
Fourth Crusade (1202–1204)
Fifth Crusade (1217–1221)
Sixth Crusade (1228–1229)
Seventh Crusade (1248–1254)

Reconquista (1085-1492)

Albigensian Crusade (1208-1229)
The Hussite Crusade(s) (1419 to circa 1434)

Conquest of the Americas (1492-1898)

Persecution of the Huguenots (1559-1598)

The Thirty Years Wars (1618–1648)

European Imperialism in Asia and Africa (Late 16th thru to mid 20th centuries)

All inspired in part by Christianity...  Hundreds of millions killed in the name of Christ


In 2013 there is no world wide Christian terrorist threat, I don't see the correlation.

Tell me Brian.

Why did you run away from the issue of *muslims bastardizing words to cover their degenerate behaviour*?

Why have you run  away from the issue of *muslims bastardising words to exonerate their atrocities, encourages islamic terrorism*?
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #86 - May 8th, 2013 at 8:13pm
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2013 at 8:02pm:
So Brian, how often do I have to interject with a criticism of some historical attrocity by Christianity to avoid being labelled a bigot?


Doesn't have to be historical.  Can be current.  Several times, a hundred times, a thousand times, perhaps?   The point is, giving Muslims are fair go, stop continually erecting a strawman version of Islam and what Muslims believe and actually read what others say and modify your opinion on that basis.  Don't assume single authority figures for Islam.  Etc., etc.

Quote:
Why is it only necessary to balance criticism of Islam with criticism of Christianity and no other ideologies?


They are not "ideologies", they are religions.  Any, all, some, will do.  Not just one.

If you were to continually criticise Christianity/Hinduism/Judaism/Taoism/etc I'd be saying the same thing about your comments.

Quote:
Why are you incapable of responding to these very simple questions?


How am I incapable, FD?  This is the first time you've asked them.  I have now answered them.

Remember, the key is balance.  Once you achieve that, you've have snatched the pebbles and you will be able to leave the temple, Grasshopper.   Cool
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Brian Ross
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #87 - May 8th, 2013 at 8:14pm
 
moses wrote on May 8th, 2013 at 8:12pm:
Brian Ross wrote;
Quote:
Lets even that up a little bit and see what the touch-feely, lovey-dovey Peaceful Christian religion got up to, shall we?

First Crusade (1095–1099)
Second Crusade (1147–1149)
Third Crusade (1187–1192)
Fourth Crusade (1202–1204)
Fifth Crusade (1217–1221)
Sixth Crusade (1228–1229)
Seventh Crusade (1248–1254)

Reconquista (1085-1492)

Albigensian Crusade (1208-1229)
The Hussite Crusade(s) (1419 to circa 1434)

Conquest of the Americas (1492-1898)

Persecution of the Huguenots (1559-1598)

The Thirty Years Wars (1618–1648)

European Imperialism in Asia and Africa (Late 16th thru to mid 20th centuries)

All inspired in part by Christianity...  Hundreds of millions killed in the name of Christ


Tell me Brian.

Why did you run away from the issue of *muslims bastardizing words to cover their degenerate behaviour*?


Run away?  What's wrong with providing a bit of balance?  Showing that what Muslims may have done wasn't any different from what Christians did frightens you for some reason.

All those dead people, killed in the name of Christ, spreading Christianity around the world...   Roll Eyes
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #88 - May 8th, 2013 at 8:19pm
 
Quote:
Doesn't have to be historical.  Can be current.  Several times, a hundred times, a thousand times, perhaps?   The point is, giving Muslims are fair go, stop continually erecting a strawman version of Islam and what Muslims believe and actually read what others say and modify your opinion on that basis.  Don't assume single authority figures for Islam.  Etc., etc.


Is this your way of admitting that your argument based on absence of evidence is logically flawed? Or were you serious about minimum quantities of criticism of Christianity to balance criticism of Islam?

Quote:
They are not "ideologies", they are religions.  Any, all, some, will do.  Not just one.


Why do you only pick on Christianity? Isn't that bigotry?

Also, what is your point about ideology? Islam is a political ideology as well as a relgion.

Quote:
If you were to continually criticise Christianity/Hinduism/Judaism/Taoism/etc I'd be saying the same thing about your comments.


There are plenty who actually do that right here on this forum. To demonstrate you are not a bigot, please quote yourself criticising them. Failure to do so must be interpretted as proof of your bigotry according to your own standards.

Quote:
How am I incapable, FD?  This is the first time you've asked them.


Are you blind?
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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #89 - May 8th, 2013 at 8:27pm
 
Brian Ross
Quote:
Run away?  What's wrong with providing a bit of balance?  Showing that what Muslims may have done wasn't any different from what Christians did frightens you for some reason.

All those dead people, killed in the name of Christ, spreading Christianity around the world


You have avoided the two issues of:

1/.muslims bastardizing words to cover their degenerate behaviour?

2/.because muslims bastardised words to exonerate islamic atrocities, in order to falsely portray muslims as the heroic saviours, this has encouraged islamic terrorism
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