Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #90 - May 8^th, 2013 at 8:50pm

moses wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 8:27pm:

Brian Ross
Quote:

Run away? What's wrong with providing a bit of balance? Showing that what Muslims may have done wasn't any different from what Christians did frightens you for some reason.

All those dead people, killed in the name of Christ, spreading Christianity around the world

You have avoided the two issues of:

1/.muslims bastardizing words to cover their degenerate behaviour?

2/.because muslims bastardised words to exonerate islamic atrocities, in order to falsely portray muslims as the heroic saviours, this has encouraged islamic terrorism

You haven't provided any evidence, Moses.

Still unwilling to criticise all those Christians spreading Christianity by the sword? Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #91 - May 8^th, 2013 at 10:29pm

freediver wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 7:42pm:

Sure. Have you ever seen a rally in which 100% of the people who support it turn up? For a tiny minority to get that many people marching through the street is actually fairly impressive.

No really its not. Impressive would be the 10,000 Hazaras in Australia who managed to get close to 400 protestors earlier this year. 200 bogans from a population close to half a million is not impressive.

freediver wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 7:42pm:

Is this like Abbott's explanation of when he can tell the truth?

Fronting up to the media and opening themselves up for questions is being slightly more open and transparent than merely releasing a press statement.

freediver wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 7:42pm:

I'm pretty sure I would not mince my words into something that absurd. Please quote what I actually say.

FD apparently not mincing words:
Quote:

violence and the dismantling of freedom and democracy has widespread support among the "mainstream" Muslim community.

violence has "widespread" support then. As I said, 'widespread' is completely meaningless. Is it a majority? Is it less than a majority - if so how much? At what point does something become popular enough that it becomes "widespread"? Its just meaningless semantics because it can mean whatever you want it to mean. And thats what enables you to make the ridiculous leap in logic that a few dozen idiots is representative of a population of nearly half a million.

freediver wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 7:42pm:

I'm glad you realise there was more than one. That took you long enough. Next step is you realising there were more than two

Ah yes, thats right, those anonymous persons known only as "some muslims" - the people who make claims about camel urine, that curiously can't be found anywhere on this forum.

Seriously though, you can't blame me for thinking Abu is your main source, when just about every reply to me contains "Abu said this" and "Abu said that..." Occasionally Falah said something too. But you have never referenced anyone other than those two (apart from your made up 'some muslims').

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #92 - May 9^th, 2013 at 12:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 10:29pm:

freediver wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 7:42pm:

Sure. Have you ever seen a rally in which 100% of the people who support it turn up? For a tiny minority to get that many people marching through the street is actually fairly impressive.

No really its not. Impressive would be the 10,000 Hazaras in Australia who managed to get close to 400 protestors earlier this year. 200 bogans from a population close to half a million is not impressive.

Were these muslims protesting the death penalty for apostasy-blasphemy-adultery-homosexuality-honour killings or even Islamic terror or perhaps persecution from non muslims?

The Hazara shia were protesting about the bigotry and persecution from the sunni side of Islam which makes Islam look like a bigoted ideology if you belong to the wrong sect.

The genocide and persecution of the Ahmadi muslims by mainstream Islam is more evidence of the bigotry and intolerance from Islam.

Quote:

In a number of Islamic countries,especially those which are sunni dominated, the Ahmadis have been considered heretics and non muslim and subjected to persecution and often systematic oppression.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis

This website outlines some of the persecution and genocide of Ahmadi muslims by mainstream Islam.
www.thepersecution.org

The sunni are the largest sect in Islam.

Gandalf- Do you consider the Ahmadi to be muslims or do you take the mainstream Islam view of them being non muslims?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #93 - May 9^th, 2013 at 12:11pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 8:14pm:

moses wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 8:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote;
Quote:

Lets even that up a little bit and see what the touch-feely, lovey-dovey Peaceful Christian religion got up to, shall we?

First Crusade (1095–1099)
Second Crusade (1147–1149)
Third Crusade (1187–1192)
Fourth Crusade (1202–1204)
Fifth Crusade (1217–1221)
Sixth Crusade (1228–1229)
Seventh Crusade (1248–1254)

Reconquista (1085-1492)

Albigensian Crusade (1208-1229)
The Hussite Crusade(s) (1419 to circa 1434)

Conquest of the Americas (1492-1898)

Persecution of the Huguenots (1559-1598)

The Thirty Years Wars (1618–1648)

European Imperialism in Asia and Africa (Late 16th thru to mid 20th centuries)

All inspired in part by Christianity... Hundreds of millions killed in the name of Christ

Tell me Brian.

Why did you run away from the issue of *muslims bastardizing words to cover their degenerate behaviour*?

Run away? What's wrong with providing a bit of balance? Showing that what Muslims may have done wasn't any different from what Christians did frightens you for some reason.

All those dead people, killed in the name of Christ, spreading Christianity around the world... Roll Eyes

We know the death toll from Islamic conquests is not zero yet that number shows how much attention these Islamic apologists show to what it could be.

When you look at the timeline of Islamic conquests it shows the crusades were only taking back by the sword what Islam conquered with the sword.
A long list of Islamic wars and conquests here-www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=19435.0

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #94 - May 9^th, 2013 at 12:20pm

And once again Baron wins first prize in the missing-the-entire-point-of-the-post competition.

I was merely demonstrating to FD what an "impressive" figure would be in terms of representation at a protest rally.

400 out of a population of 10 000 = impressive
200 out of a population of 500 000 = not very impressive

And yeah, I got no beef with saying the Hazara's got short end of the stick in terms of their treatment by other muslims.

And its heartening indeed to see you standing up for muslims Baron.

Baronvonrort wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 12:04pm:

Were these muslims protesting the death penalty for apostasy-blasphemy-adultery-homosexuality-honour killings or even Islamic terror or perhaps persecution from non muslims?

No! Fancy that - muslims actually standing up for human rights!

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #95 - May 9^th, 2013 at 12:46pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 12:20pm:

And once again Baron wins first prize in the missing-the-entire-point-of-the-post competition.

And yeah, I got no beef with saying the Hazara's got short end of the stick in terms of their treatment by other muslims.

The hazara are persecuted by the largest sect in Islam the sunni.

What about the Ahmadi, do you consider them to be muslims gandalf or do you take the mainstream Islam view they are heretical non muslims for daring to reform Islam?

If the ahmadi are persecuted for reforming Islam does that mean Islam cannot be reformed?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #96 - May 9^th, 2013 at 12:54pm

Quote:

violence has "widespread" support then.

Just to clarify, even Abu opposes vigilante justice. But he supports violence where it is condoned by Islam. I even asked him whether he would participate in some of the more cruel and unusual punishments he proscribes, and he said he would not even aprticipate, even though it is supposed to be a community event. He even went one step further and attempted to argue that politically supporting the legal system that would take these decisions out of his hands and impose the violence is not the same thing as directly supporting the outcome. He had all sorts of politcally correct ways of distancing himself from the opression, cruelty and violence, but in the end he would support it if given the chance.

Quote:

Ah yes, thats right, those anonymous persons known only as "some muslims" - the people who make claims about camel urine, that curiously can't be found anywhere on this forum.

No, I mean people like Malik, whose contribution may well be more significant than that of Falah, who was more entertainment value given how ludicrous some of his positions were. Malik modded the Islam board prior to Abu. I think they had a falling out after it emerged Malik was a shite and Abu was a Sunni, and Abu thought that death was an appropriate Islamic punishment for promoting Shitism. I think Abu blamed me for this, as I started asking about it. He accused me of trying to drive a wedge between them and disrupt their Muslim unity.

Quote:

Seriously though, you can't blame me for thinking Abu is your main source

That is merely because he is the one who was present at the same time as you. I recall how hard it was to get you two to actually talk to each other, but that was before I realised you were a Muslim rather than just another apologist.

Quote:

No! Fancy that - muslims actually standing up for human rights!

Universal human rights, or the rights of Muslims from the same sect?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #97 - May 9^th, 2013 at 1:33pm freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 12:54pm: ust to clarify, even Abu opposes vigilante justice. But he supports violence where it is condoned by Islam. Thats not answering any of the relevant questions I have asked.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #98 - May 9^th, 2013 at 1:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 10:29pm:

Ah yes, thats right, those anonymous persons known only as "some muslims" - the people who make claims about camel urine, that curiously can't be found anywhere on this forum.

This link from an Islamic website has been posted numerous times in this forum.

Islamic source for drinking camel urine-www.islamqa.com/en/ref/83423/camelurine

Search for camel urine on youtube many videos on the health benefits from drinking camel urine over there.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #99 - May 9^th, 2013 at 2:14pm

moses wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 8:27pm:

Brian Ross
Quote:

Run away? What's wrong with providing a bit of balance? Showing that what Muslims may have done wasn't any different from what Christians did frightens you for some reason.

All those dead people, killed in the name of Christ, spreading Christianity around the world

You have avoided the two issues of:

1/.muslims bastardizing words to cover their degenerate behaviour?

2/.because muslims bastardised words to exonerate islamic atrocities, in order to falsely portray muslims as the heroic saviours, this has encouraged islamic terrorism

Too true, moses.

2/.because muslims bastardised words to exonerate islamic atrocities, in order to falsely portray muslims as the heroic saviours, this has encouraged islamic terrorism this has allowed islamic terrorism to avoid serious and critical scrutiny by Western commentators.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1354364015/14#14
Quote:

Dictionary,
sophistry = = the use of fallacious arguments, especially to deceive.

SOPHISTRY EXAMPLE #1

Peace

Moslem clerics [and moslem community spokesmen] have declared to the non-moslem community, that moslems want to see 'peace' cover the whole earth.

But a moslem, does not openly reveal [at the same time] that all good moslems define 'peace', as submission to Allah's will.
Dar al-Islam = = "house of peace" [is those places where Sharia has authority].
Dar al-Harb = = "house of war".

Google,
Dar al-Harb deception
i.e.
A moslem 'peace' = = mankind's SLAVERY, under ISLAMIST political rule.

SOPHISTRY EXAMPLE #2

'Terrorism'

Moslem clerics [and moslem community spokesmen] have declared to the non-moslem community, that moslems condemn 'terrorism'.

But those moslem spokesmen does not reveal that ISLAMISTS >ALSO< define non-moslems as terrorists!!

Because ISLAMISTS have defined 'terrorism' as; Resisting Allah's will.

When non-moslems try to resist the ISLAMISATION of their society, or try to prevent ISLAMIST violence, good moslems have been recorded as presenting such actions [to their own moslem community] as 'oppression' and 'violence' against moslems!

e.g.
"Five Sydney men jailed over terrorism plot"
"The sister for one of the convicted men said...that the sentence is not fair to her community or religion."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/15/2819965.htm
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/02/australia-5-jihadists-motivated-by-intolerant-...

SOPHISTRY EXAMPLE #3

Innocent people

Moslem clerics [and moslem community spokesmen] have declared to the non-moslem community, that moslems condemn the killing of innocent people.

But the 'virtuous' moslem, does not openly reveal that [at the same time] in ISLAM, only moslems qualify as 'innocent people'.
EXAMPLES next post....

Google to find...

e.g.
"....when we say innocent people, we mean muslims...If you are a non-muslim, then you are guilty...."
Anjem Choudary, UK muslim community leader, speaking publicly, of the London 7/7 bombing victims.

e.g.
"......In public interviews Bakri condemned the killing of all innocent civilians. Later when he addressed his own followers he explained that he had in fact been referring only to Muslims as only they were innocent: Yes I condemn killing any innocent people, but not any [unbeliever]."
Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, speaking publicly, and then privately, regarding the London 7/7 bombing victims.

e.g.
"We don't make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents. Only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value. It has no sanctity."
Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, speaking to a moslem audience, regarding the London 7/7 bombing victims.

ISLAM = deceit.

a good read, outlining and exposing ISLAMIST sophistry...

Islamic Dictionary for Infidels
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/07/islamic-dictionary-for-infidels.html

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #100 - May 9^th, 2013 at 7:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 1:33pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 12:54pm:

ust to clarify, even Abu opposes vigilante justice. But he supports violence where it is condoned by Islam.

Thats not answering any of the relevant questions I have asked.

Would you mind pointing out the relevant ones for me? Before you ask, I do not have statistics on what percentage of Muslims support each particular form of violence, oppression and cruelty proscribed by Islam. Given that it often took me a few dozen pages to get a straight answer on a single question from Abu, I am not expecting to find such detailed stats. You would be risking your life just asking some of those questions.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #101 - May 9^th, 2013 at 9:30pm

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 7:19pm:

Would you mind pointing out the relevant ones for me? Before you ask, I do not have statistics on what percentage of Muslims support each particular form of violence, oppression and cruelty proscribed by Islam. Given that it often took me a few dozen pages to get a straight answer on a single question from Abu, I am not expecting to find such detailed stats.

Its very simple FD. What I am after is some evidence to support your claim that violence and intolerance is taught and promoted by mainstream islamic bodies. To get specific, lets go back to page one, where you said:

Quote:

what they make clear is that extremism and violence of the wrong type, with the wrong timing, or without their approval is rejected, but usually still justified or excused.

What I'm asking is, in the face of the evidence I have presented of mainstream islamic leaders standing up against violence, on what basis can you claim that this "right" type of violence and extremism is "usually still justified or excused"? And it is not enough to simply dismiss the public statements I have presented as evidence as mere PR stunts - you need to actually demonstrate they are mere stunts by showing us evidence that these same leaders cannot be believed.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #102 - May 9^th, 2013 at 9:37pm

Abu got his ideas from mainstream islamic bodies. That british guy has a big following. The Koran itself is about as mainstream as you get. The Koran and Hadeeth are full of calls to violence. Do they count as mainstream Islam? Or do I need to quote a mainstream Islamic body representative quoting the Koran in order for it to count? What about Muhammed? Does he represent mainstream Islam? Does his promotion of violence, rape and cruelty count?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #103 - May 9^th, 2013 at 10:19pm

No I'm not talking about Mohammad or the Quran or the hadith - as spelled out veryclearly in the OP.

In your own words:

Quote:

The point is that violence and the dismantling of freedom and democracy has widespread support among the "mainstream" Muslim community.

and again, from page 1:

Quote:

what they make clear is that extremism and violence of the wrong type, with the wrong timing, or without their approval is rejected, but usually still justified or excused.

Muslim community FD, not their texts - as you yourself spelled out very specifically. I'm just looking for some evidence to support this. Just take the second quote if you like (since as explained before, "widespread" is meaningless to the absurd) - who makes clear that violence is only unaccepted because its the "wrong type"? How do you know this? On what possible basis can you make the claim that violence (the "right" type) is usually still justified or excused? Now you just said you don't have any statistics on muslim support for violence - wouldn't you need this to be able to make your "usually" claim? What is "usually justified or excused" - would necessarily mean a majority of muslims justify/excuse it right? Yet you just admitted you don't have a damn clue what proportions of muslims justify or excuse violence.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #104 - May 9^th, 2013 at 10:26pm

Quote:

No I'm not talking about Mohammad or the Quran or the hadith - as spelled out veryclearly in the OP.

I am. Do they represent mainstream Islam? Are you arguing that mainstream islam has become so normalised that it is no longer represented by Muhammed etc?

Quote:

Muslim community FD, not their texts

What defines the community? Islam. What defines Islam? The texts. Are you seriously suggesting that the koran does not count as representative of mainstream Islam, but if I do find an islamic body that you approve of quoting from the Koran, then it does count?

Quote:

who makes clear that violence is only unaccepted because its the "wrong type"? How do you know this?

If it is the wrong type then by definition it is acceptable.

Quote:

Now you just said you don't have any statistics on muslim support for violence

There was a guy who started asking once, but he got his head chopped off. So now Muslims can insist they are peaceful and march through the street calling for beheadings, and no-one is able to challenge them because they lack the statistics. Brilliant eh? Just following Muhammed's lead.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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