Australian Politics Forum - Gandalf's riddle

freediver

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Gandalf's riddle
May 11^th, 2013 at 12:37pm

Prove what mainstream Islam teaches it's followers about violence without any reference to Muhammed, the Koran or Hadeeth, without any reference to what Muslims have said about Islam on this forum, without any reference to Muslim leaders being exposed in the media promoting violence, and without going into any specifics about how the violence is promoted or what sort of violence is promoted. You may only use forums, blogs and opinion pieces that Gandalf approves of as representative of mainstream Islam.

To keep Brian happy to have to interject on a regular basis with criticism of Christianity. Failure to do so proves you are doing exactly the same thing as what you accuse Muslims of.

www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1367633212/126#126

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's riddle
Reply #1 - May 11^th, 2013 at 12:58pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 12:37pm:

Prove what mainstream Islam teaches it's followers about violence without any reference to Muhammed, the Koran or Hadeeth

Prove what mainstream *MUSLIMS* teach their followers *TODAY* about violence without any reference to Muhammad, the Quran etc

Thats a perfectly reasonable statement.

Or to take a slightly different angle:

Prove that your version of violence and intolerance in islamic doctrine is the same version believed and promoted by mainstream muslims

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49458 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf's riddle Reply #2 - May 11^th, 2013 at 1:33pm Can you explain the distinction you are making between mainstream Islam and what mainstream MUSLIMS teach their followers TODAY without undermining your own argument?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's riddle
Reply #3 - May 11^th, 2013 at 2:03pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 1:33pm:

Can you explain the distinction you are making between mainstream Islam and what mainstream *MUSLIMS* teach their followers *TODAY* without undermining your own argument?

I don't believe I ever made such a distinction.

If my position wasn't clear before that I was only ever referring to muslims by reference to "mainstream islam" - then consider this clarified now.

Whenever I have specifically referred to islamic texts in the past, I believe I have gone out of my way to make this abundantly clear - by referring to them as "islamic doctrine" or "islamic jurprudence" or "islamic law" etc.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49458 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf's riddle Reply #4 - May 11^th, 2013 at 2:26pm Quote: I don't believe I ever made such a distinction. Yet you follow this up by making the distinction yet again: Quote: If my position wasn't clear before that I was only ever referring to muslims by reference to "mainstream islam" - then consider this clarified now.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's riddle
Reply #5 - May 11^th, 2013 at 2:42pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:26pm:

Yet you follow this up by making the distinction yet again:

Well I assume you are referring to my description of "mainstream islam" in this thread - during which the whole time I was only ever debating what muslims say, not their texts. If this is not what you are referring to, then please clarify.

I don't believe I have ever referred to islamic texts as "mainstream islam" - thats my point.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49458 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf's riddle Reply #6 - May 11^th, 2013 at 2:59pm Quote: I don't believe I have ever referred to islamic texts as "mainstream islam" Why not? Is this like someone saying they would never refer to the Bible as mainstream Christianity?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gandalf's riddle Reply #7 - May 11^th, 2013 at 5:21pm I wouldn't refer to the bible as "mainstream christianity" either. I would refer to it as "chrstian doctrine".
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49458 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf's riddle Reply #8 - May 11^th, 2013 at 5:23pm So how does "mainstream Islam" differ from "Islamic doctrine"?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's riddle
Reply #9 - May 11^th, 2013 at 5:28pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 5:23pm:

So how does "mainstream Islam" differ from "Islamic doctrine"?

I don't believe they do differ fundamentally. I believe the doctrine to be a model of justice and compassion and morality - and I believe 'mainstream islam' - or the majority of muslims - strive to emulate this model. But of course muslims are only human, so there will be flaws.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49458 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf's riddle Reply #10 - May 11^th, 2013 at 5:33pm Is there some kind of universal, collective flaw, or are you suggesting many minor individual flaws? That is, can you explain how "mainstream Islam" differs from "Islamic doctrine" unfundamentally? Is your other thread basically asking about Islamic doctrine, but demanding an absurdly nebulous method of evidence?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gandalf's riddle Reply #11 - May 11^th, 2013 at 5:45pm humans are flawed - get it? My other thread was not about islamic doctrine - I only emphasised that about a billion times. Is there actually a point to all this?
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freediver

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Re: Gandalf's riddle
Reply #12 - May 11^th, 2013 at 6:41pm

Originally my point was just to mock the absurd demands you were making of everyone. It is quite a turnaround from when you first turned up and insisted everyone learn arabic and go back to the original source before they were allowed to comment on Islam.

But now I would like to know why you think we would get a different answer if we focussed on what mainstream Muslims teach about Islam vs what mainstream Islam teaches. If they are the same thing, why reject one? It puts you in the absurd position of rejecting the Koran as evidence, but accepting Muslims quoting the Koran as evidence, so long as you approve of them as mainstream Muslims.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's riddle
Reply #13 - May 11^th, 2013 at 7:04pm

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

Originally my point was just to mock the absurd demands you were making of everyone. It is quite a turnaround from when you first turned up and insisted everyone learn arabic and go back to the original source before they were allowed to comment on Islam.

for commenting on islamic doctrine - yes, not for commenting on what muslims actually say and do - out there in the community.

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

But now I would like to know why you think we would get a different answer if we focussed on what mainstream Muslims teach about Islam vs what mainstream Islam teaches. If they are the same thing, why reject one?

Who is rejecting one? Where on earth did you get that idea??

Are you honestly that confused by this incredibly simple concept - that a discussion on what muslims believe, say and do is *NOT* a discussion on what you think you know about islamic texts - and a discussion on islamic texts is *NOT* a discussion on what muslims believe, say and do?

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

It puts you in the absurd position of rejecting the Koran as evidence, but accepting Muslims quoting the Koran as evidence, so long as you approve of them as mainstream Muslims.

You are one confused puppy.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Gandalf's riddle
Reply #14 - May 11^th, 2013 at 7:31pm

Quote:

Are you honestly that confused by this incredibly simple concept - that a discussion on what muslims believe, say and do is *NOT* a discussion on what you think you know about islamic texts - and a discussion on islamic texts is *NOT* a discussion on what muslims believe, say and do?

I have never based my arguments on what I think I know about the Koran. I have always asked Muslims. Malik and Abu actually changed my views on a lot of issues to do with Islam.

I think that Islamic texts are a great starting point in any discussion on what Muslims believe. Any suggestion that we should attempt to generalise on what mainstream Muslims believe without reference to Islamic texts is absurd. Any attempt to do so without reference to specific methods or rules of violence is absurd. What they do may well be a different matter, but we can all see what they do.

I have actually found Muslims to be remarkably consistent on the issues that I am interested in, once you get past the different ways they spin it. I don't exactly have a list, but the only big issue I recall you differing with Abu on is the death penalty for apostasy.

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