Australian Politics Forum - Difference between Germany and Japan

Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Difference between Germany and Japan
Reply #30 - May 18^th, 2013 at 9:28am

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 8:20am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Nietzsche's description and analysis of slave morality is the most fundamental insight of the (post)modern era. For example, Grey seems to think he's some kind of freedom fighter who holds the key to true justice, yet he is a most reactive person. He reacts against 'power structures' and has little ideas of his own, yet he calls himself the 'good' and the 'just.' He sits, waiting, for someone, somewhere to assert some power, and then he pounces on it and claims to be fighting the good fight.

However, I don't blame Grey and his ilk too much (this includes the whole plethora of slave moralists - feminists, socialists, liberals, reactive conservatives, pessimists). When the dominant ethos of the era tells you that negative freedom, 'freedom from oppression', and equality encapsulate and embody the absolute 'good', then you can't blame the sheep for believing such things. There will always be sheep and herds.

The overcoming, acceptance, and affirmation of pain, suffering, hardship, conflict, and misery is a personal journey, and not a political program.

What is negative freedom?

It is freedom from constraint. It is the freedom to not be held back or shackled by a convention or authority. It is intimately related to liberal theory - the idea that the individual is sovereign and no one can tell it what to do.

It is often contrasted with positive freedom, which is a self-disciplining and an acquiring of a skill set to achieve a goal or task. Those who are experts in their field - scientists, philosophers, athletes, politicians - often embody a positive freedom of some description.

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Grey

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Re: Difference between Germany and Japan
Reply #31 - May 18^th, 2013 at 9:42am

Chard wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 4:52am:

Grey wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Anarchists beat up Nazis. We can tell they're Nazis because they wave Nazi flags, wear the uniform, walk the walk and talk the talk. We are the lovers of freedom, they are the lovers of oppression. Natural enemies innit. You have to keep the rats down otherwise they become a plague.

Holyshit... I called it.

I suppose you think a plea of 'obeying orders' at Nuremburg was a fair thing?

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Difference between Germany and Japan
Reply #32 - May 18^th, 2013 at 11:57am

Grey wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 9:42am:

I suppose you think a plea of 'obeying orders' at Nuremburg was a fair thing?

It depends on the defendant Grey.
That's the danger of blanket assumption without delving deeper.

Goering for example had no such defence, he was a high ranking Nazi who gave the orders.

However other Nazis were faced with the prospect of obeying orders of certain death for themselves.

Hitler was not one for insubordination.

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Grey

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Re: Difference between Germany and Japan
Reply #33 - May 18^th, 2013 at 2:10pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:57am:

Grey wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 9:42am:

I suppose you think a plea of 'obeying orders' at Nuremburg was a fair thing?

It depends on the defendant Grey.
That's the danger of blanket assumption without delving deeper.

Goering for example had no such defence, he was a high ranking Nazi who gave the orders.

However other Nazis were faced with the prospect of obeying orders of certain death for themselves.

Hitler was not one for insubordination.

Hitler was a long way from Auschwitz Andrei. what a Nazi structure requires is obedience to authority. In the case of the Nazis that was very much an usurped authority.

The heart of a genuine authority runs on a constant supply of respect. Fear of consequences isn't respect. If some parody of respect is coerced from people it's worthless. Anarchists are not anti-authority. In fact there's a real joy in serving a genuine Authority; but obedience? That's for dogs.

Chard accuses me of Quote:

reasoning involve(ing) some convoluted nonsense about how it somehow isn't assault as long as you disagree with their politics?

There's nothing convoluted about Anarchies (or my) attitude to fascists. But you might say it was nuanced. Anarchists don't want power, they're not interested in being elected or taking control. Anarchists are concerned with structures that facilitate co-operation. They're concerned with 'consciousness raising', teaching ways to think outside the box.

But if people want to keep on voting for their political gangs and jumping one way or another every few years that's up to them. Anarchists will never ever coerce anybody to adopt their way of doing. We know it simply cannot ever work, not in the long term.

People like the BNP, if all they wanted to do was get the trains running on schedule, we'd have no problem with that. We have a problem with them telling people the trains don't run on time because they're run by 'black people' who've stolen 'your' jobs. We have trouble with their violence, real and implied. We know from the past where people like that will take us if they ever get the numbers.

We'd be happy to leave it to the police to handle, but they don't. For one thing there's a lot of sympathy for groups like the BNP within police forces. Some of the most virulently racist orgs. in Britain and America are police forces. They're run on the same military lines, wear uniforms wave flags and have done their obedience training courses.

Chard here might vent off about racism, but Chard the policeman will never go after the KKK, he'll never be ordered to. When NeoNazis wanted to march across the German border into Warsaw to celebrate Crystal Night a few years ago, no police force was going to stop them, no government was going to stop them, Anarchists poured in from all over Europe and stopped them. We'll keep stopping them, if people like Chard don't like it they can sit on it and rotate.

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Chard

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Re: Difference between Germany and Japan
Reply #34 - May 19^th, 2013 at 9:24am

Grey wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 2:10pm:

Chard here might vent off about racism, but Chard the policeman will never go after the KKK, he'll never be ordered to.

As long as they're obeying the law then there isn't valid justification to do so. When they do get out of line legally the law tends to come down on their heads like a very heavy object dropped from a great height.

See, in the US the same rights to free speech and peaceful assembly that would allow guys sharing your beliefs to shout slogans and protest whatever also apply to organizations like the KKK. As long as you or they limit your activities to lawful exercise of those rights the law not only cannot interfere with it, they actually are obligated to protect you from assault from those that disagree with you.

Quote:

When NeoNazis wanted to march across the German border into Warsaw to celebrate Crystal Night a few years ago, no police force was going to stop them, no government was going to stop them, Anarchists poured in from all over Europe and stopped them. We'll keep stopping them, if people like Chard don't like it they can sit on it and rotate.

So like I said, you believe that disagreeing with someone's politics is a valid justification for physically assaulting them. You can experiment with that idea. Just go down to the pub and get into a political argument with someone, punch them in the face, and when the cops come see if they accept your justification or if they chuck you in a cell. do it for SCIENCE!

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Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack.

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Chard

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Re: Difference between Germany and Japan
Reply #35 - May 19^th, 2013 at 9:25am

Grey wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 9:42am:

Chard wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 4:52am:

Grey wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Anarchists beat up Nazis. We can tell they're Nazis because they wave Nazi flags, wear the uniform, walk the walk and talk the talk. We are the lovers of freedom, they are the lovers of oppression. Natural enemies innit. You have to keep the rats down otherwise they become a plague.

Holyshit... I called it.

I suppose you think a plea of 'obeying orders' at Nuremburg was a fair thing?

What does that have to do with my point or were you just trying to pull an ad Nazium argument our of your ass again?

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Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Difference between Germany and Japan
Reply #36 - May 19^th, 2013 at 9:35am

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 9:28am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 8:20am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Nietzsche's description and analysis of slave morality is the most fundamental insight of the (post)modern era. For example, Grey seems to think he's some kind of freedom fighter who holds the key to true justice, yet he is a most reactive person. He reacts against 'power structures' and has little ideas of his own, yet he calls himself the 'good' and the 'just.' He sits, waiting, for someone, somewhere to assert some power, and then he pounces on it and claims to be fighting the good fight.

However, I don't blame Grey and his ilk too much (this includes the whole plethora of slave moralists - feminists, socialists, liberals, reactive conservatives, pessimists). When the dominant ethos of the era tells you that negative freedom, 'freedom from oppression', and equality encapsulate and embody the absolute 'good', then you can't blame the sheep for believing such things. There will always be sheep and herds.

The overcoming, acceptance, and affirmation of pain, suffering, hardship, conflict, and misery is a personal journey, and not a political program.

What is negative freedom?

It is freedom from constraint. It is the freedom to not be held back or shackled by a convention or authority. It is intimately related to liberal theory - the idea that the individual is sovereign and no one can tell it what to do.

It is often contrasted with positive freedom, which is a self-disciplining and an acquiring of a skill set to achieve a goal or task. Those who are experts in their field - scientists, philosophers, athletes, politicians - often embody a positive freedom of some description.

Acceptance and affirmation of pain and suffering may be a personal journey, but I don't see how it negates fighting oppression or promoting equality in any way. While there is no absolute good, you must agree that by establishing a more egalitarian society, suffering is decreased and therefore the need to process it is lessened.

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Grey

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Re: Difference between Germany and Japan
Reply #37 - May 19^th, 2013 at 11:04am

Chard wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:25am:

Grey wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 9:42am:

Chard wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 4:52am:

Grey wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Anarchists beat up Nazis. We can tell they're Nazis because they wave Nazi flags, wear the uniform, walk the walk and talk the talk. We are the lovers of freedom, they are the lovers of oppression. Natural enemies innit. You have to keep the rats down otherwise they become a plague.

Holyshit... I called it.

I suppose you think a plea of 'obeying orders' at Nuremburg was a fair thing?

What does that have to do with my point or were you just trying to pull an ad Nazium argument our of your ass again?

Taking orders, doing what you're told, obeying the law, doesn't always cut the mustard. Ultimately you have to be guided by what you know to be right or wrong. Tolerance for the KKK is like a Dr. saying to his patient, 'we cut out the tumour, well most of it anyway, there's a bit left but we wont worry about that unless it grows again'.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Chard

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Re: Difference between Germany and Japan
Reply #38 - May 19^th, 2013 at 12:04pm

Grey wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 11:04am:

Chard wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:25am:

Grey wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 9:42am:

Chard wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 4:52am:

Grey wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Anarchists beat up Nazis. We can tell they're Nazis because they wave Nazi flags, wear the uniform, walk the walk and talk the talk. We are the lovers of freedom, they are the lovers of oppression. Natural enemies innit. You have to keep the rats down otherwise they become a plague.

Holyshit... I called it.

I suppose you think a plea of 'obeying orders' at Nuremburg was a fair thing?

What does that have to do with my point or were you just trying to pull an ad Nazium argument our of your ass again?

Taking orders, doing what you're told, obeying the law, doesn't always cut the mustard.

Because chaos and disorder are sooooo much better for society than rule of law. Oh, right, you're an anarchist so f*ck having an orderly society when we can have mob rule instead. The irony here is you not understanding that the very tactics you're advocating are often the same used by the fascists you're so hard up to go fight.

Quote:

Ultimately you have to be guided by what you know to be right or wrong.

Since when did lynch mobs become "right"? Seriously, do you even listen to yourself? You're basically saying that anyone who disagrees with you shouldn't have any right to conduct their business in a lawful manner. You go on about how they violate the rights of others, yet here you are doing the exact same smacking thing. If anything you're being just as much of a hateful, unethical, misanthropic bugger as the fascists you're so desperate to fight.

Quote:

Tolerance for the KKK is like a Dr. saying to his patient, 'we cut out the tumour, well most of it anyway, there's a bit left but we wont worry about that unless it grows again'.

You're terrible at analogies and know little or nothing about cancer treatment.

Counter-analogy: Running around in lynch mobs ignoring laws and the civil rights of others is like an oncologist killing his mesothelioma patient because he removed the mesothelium and both lungs instead of just the infected tissue.

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Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Difference between Germany and Japan
Reply #39 - May 19^th, 2013 at 12:10pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:35am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 9:28am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 8:20am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Nietzsche's description and analysis of slave morality is the most fundamental insight of the (post)modern era. For example, Grey seems to think he's some kind of freedom fighter who holds the key to true justice, yet he is a most reactive person. He reacts against 'power structures' and has little ideas of his own, yet he calls himself the 'good' and the 'just.' He sits, waiting, for someone, somewhere to assert some power, and then he pounces on it and claims to be fighting the good fight.

However, I don't blame Grey and his ilk too much (this includes the whole plethora of slave moralists - feminists, socialists, liberals, reactive conservatives, pessimists). When the dominant ethos of the era tells you that negative freedom, 'freedom from oppression', and equality encapsulate and embody the absolute 'good', then you can't blame the sheep for believing such things. There will always be sheep and herds.

The overcoming, acceptance, and affirmation of pain, suffering, hardship, conflict, and misery is a personal journey, and not a political program.

What is negative freedom?

It is freedom from constraint. It is the freedom to not be held back or shackled by a convention or authority. It is intimately related to liberal theory - the idea that the individual is sovereign and no one can tell it what to do.

It is often contrasted with positive freedom, which is a self-disciplining and an acquiring of a skill set to achieve a goal or task. Those who are experts in their field - scientists, philosophers, athletes, politicians - often embody a positive freedom of some description.

Acceptance and affirmation of pain and suffering may be a personal journey, but I don't see how it negates fighting oppression or promoting equality in any way. While there is no absolute good, you must agree that by establishing a more egalitarian society, suffering is decreased and therefore the need to process it is lessened.

It depends on what you mean by 'oppression'. The 'oppression' in the Western world pales into insignificance in comparison to say, North Korea.

I am suspect of the terms 'oppression' and 'equality' because they presume, firstly, that such things actually exist, secondly, that it is achievable, and thirdly, that it is the highest goal of life.

They're bad ideas in the wrong hands because they breed envy, rancour, an entitlement mentality, laziness, pessimism, and the belief in a (unachievable) utopia.

The more the criteria of 'oppression' and 'inequality' become central to how to analyse and judge a society, the more of it you're likely to see. Remove these ideas from people's heads they cease to be an issue.

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Grey

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Re: Difference between Germany and Japan
Reply #40 - May 19^th, 2013 at 3:15pm

Chard wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 12:04pm: