Australian Politics Forum - the threats posed by Islam

polite_gandalf

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #15 - May 18^th, 2013 at 11:46pm

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

You are a Muslim - it's your push. What are you doing to prevent Muslims from outlawing criticism of Islam?

Nothing.

SO you are a run of the mill cowardly and deceitful Muslim who pops up saying that things are not done by him - but does bvgger all else.

And when the outlawing of criticism of Islam is in place, you will go along with it because you are sh!tting yourself about what the bearded monsters would do to you if you spoke up.

The world is onto you, pal. You are full of righteous indingnation in this direction but are an arse-cowering cowards towards the bearded fvckers because you are scared of them.

You argue with the likes of me because you know that you are safe.

You will not argue and stand up to the "behead this and that" crowd because you know that they will rip you limb from limb if you did.

Come on Soren, be reasonable.

Islam is not a monolith - as I believe Brian has pointed out to you several times. There is the islamic community in Australia, UK, Iran, Saudi Arabia - etc etc. I happen to be a member of the Australian muslim community, and it may surprise you to learn that my primary concern is the Australian muslim community - in the context of the greater Australian community.

For what its worth, I believe I contribute positively to my local (non muslim) community, through my every day behaviour and activities. I believe that the vast majority of muslims in Australia are doing similar things in their local communities - coexisting, contributing to the local community, and presenting the right face of islam. IMO these local behaviours all over the country feed into the national face of islam, which helps create a mainstream Australian muslim community that is loyal, integrated, pro-peace and anti-extremism. For those of you who scoff at this assessment, its time for a reality check: a grand total of one single violent protest in the history of muslim settlement in Australia - and that protest totalling now more than a couple of hundred people - even fewer who were actually acting violent. Organised by a group that had no affiliation with the official islamic bodies of Sydney or NSW - bodies that represent mainstream islam. And what was the reaction by mainstream muslims? Immediate and uncategorical condemnation - but even further than that, proactive measures to prevent a similar occurance in Melbourne or anywhere else in Australia (successful) - plus the extraordinary and unprecedented move of labelling any muslim protest against the youtube video as "unislamic".

You ask what mainstream muslims like me are doing to stop the extremists - well look around you - is Australia being terrorised by mad bearded mullahs demanding that freedom and democracy be abolished? No. Mark that down to the "hijacking" (if you like) of Australia's muslim community by the anti-violence, anti-extremism sect of islam. Look at the glaring absense of any mainstream Australian-islamic movement calling for violence and/or intolerance to be imposed on Australians - mark that down to the nature of Australia's muslim community. Note 20 pages of debate in which not one of you have been able to come up with a single shred of evidence demonstrating the mainstream muslim community's violent/extremist intent anywhere in the western world. Again, mark that down to the nature of the mainstream muslim community in the western world.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #16 - May 19^th, 2013 at 12:28am

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:09pm:

freediver wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 9:03pm:

Quote:

it makes it OK for you to do these things to other Muslims

You have missed the point completely Brian. What are these things you accuse me of doing? Slaughtering Jews? Slaughtering Muslims? Assassinating journalists, authors, cartoonists, filmmakers etc? Trying to criminalise criticism of myself? Trying to destroy democracy?

Tell me, if a Christian "slaughters Jews, Christians," does that mean all Christians should be held responsible for their actions? What about if they, "Assassinating journalists, authors, cartoonists, filmmakers etc?" What about if they are, "trying to criminalise criticism of myself? Trying to destroy democracy?"

Christians have done all those things. They do all these things.

Still playing your deliberately deceitful game i see, Brian_Ross.

You are,
1/ trying to project an illegal morality upon Christians, and
2/ presenting a fallacious comparison between the lawful behavior of moslems and what would be the un-lawful behavior of Christians.

Everyone knows [except Brian_Ross], that if Christians ever killed their critics, they would be acting against their religion.

Whereas, whenever moslems kill their critics, and the critics of their 'religion', they are merely imitating the actions of Mohammed, regarded by moslems as the most virtuous moslem.

e.g.

Quote:

Ishaq: 676 “[Context note: Asma bint Marwan was a writer. She wrote critically of Muhammad, telling her tribe to be wary of him, like this:] ‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling baby and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’ ”

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1360381351/0#0

Brian_Ross,

AGAIN....

Quote:

When Christians kill others, they are going against their religion;

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Matthew 19:17
.....if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

+++

But when moslems fights against disbelievers and kill them, they, are being good moslems

And obeying Allah, in having enmity towards all persons who reject ISLAM.

Why isn't that correct ?;

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #17 - May 19^th, 2013 at 12:50am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

You are a Muslim - it's your push. What are you doing to prevent Muslims from outlawing criticism of Islam?

Nothing.

SO you are a run of the mill cowardly and deceitful Muslim who pops up saying that things are not done by him - but does bvgger all else.

And when the outlawing of criticism of Islam is in place, you will go along with it because you are sh!tting yourself about what the bearded monsters would do to you if you spoke up.

The world is onto you, pal. You are full of righteous indingnation in this direction but are an arse-cowering cowards towards the bearded fvckers because you are scared of them.

You argue with the likes of me because you know that you are safe.

You will not argue and stand up to the "behead this and that" crowd because you know that they will rip you limb from limb if you did.

Come on Soren, be reasonable.

Islam is not a monolith - as I believe Brian has pointed out to you several times. There is the islamic community in Australia, UK, Iran, Saudi Arabia - etc etc. I happen to be a member of the Australian muslim community, and it may surprise you to learn that my primary concern is the Australian muslim community - in the context of the greater Australian community.

For what its worth, I believe I contribute positively to my local (non muslim) community, through my every day behaviour and activities. I believe that the vast majority of muslims in Australia are doing similar things in their local communities - coexisting, contributing to the local community, and presenting the right face of islam. IMO these local behaviours all over the country feed into the national face of islam, which helps create a mainstream Australian muslim community that is loyal, integrated, pro-peace and anti-extremism. For those of you who scoff at this assessment, its time for a reality check: a grand total of one single violent protest in the history of muslim settlement in Australia - and that protest totalling now more than a couple of hundred people - even fewer who were actually acting violent. Organised by a group that had no affiliation with the official islamic bodies of Sydney or NSW - bodies that represent mainstream islam. And what was the reaction by mainstream muslims? Immediate and uncategorical condemnation - but even further than that, proactive measures to prevent a similar occurance in Melbourne or anywhere else in Australia (successful) - plus the extraordinary and unprecedented move of labelling any muslim protest against the youtube video as "unislamic".

You ask what mainstream muslims like me are doing to stop the extremists - well look around you - is Australia being terrorised by mad bearded mullahs demanding that freedom and democracy be abolished? No. Mark that down to the "hijacking" (if you like) of Australia's muslim community by the anti-violence, anti-extremism sect of islam. Look at the glaring absense of any mainstream Australian-islamic movement calling for violence and/or intolerance to be imposed on Australians - mark that down to the nature of Australia's muslim community. Note 20 pages of debate in which not one of you have been able to come up with a single shred of evidence demonstrating the mainstream muslim community's violent/extremist intent anywhere in the western world. Again, mark that down to the nature of the mainstream muslim community in the western world.

Come on gandalf, when are you going to play the straight man ?

Or is that a naive question. Tongue

You know very well, that the heart of ISLAM, are the contents of ISLAM's foundation texts [the Koran and the Hadith].

Texts which declare and command a never ending warfare against those who reject ISLAM.

Mainstream ISLAM, is the ISLAM defined and directed by the contents its foundation texts [the Koran and the Hadith].

gandalf,

There are so many other moslems [esp. moslems within moslems majority jurisdictions] that have no problem acknowledging that truth.

Why do you find the truth so difficult to acknowledge gandalf ?

"The Koran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader, jihad is our path and death in the name of Allah is our goal."

Declaration by Morsi - Recently elected ISLAMIST PRESIDENT of Egypt.

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

Quote:

May 23, 2007
Turkish PM Erdogan in Speech During Term As Istanbul Mayor Attacks Turkey's Constitution, Describing it As 'A Huge Lie':

'Sovereignty Belongs Unconditionally and Always To Allah';

'One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular'

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD159607

+++

gandalf,

Moslems everywhere see the fortunes of the moslems rising.

They believe that they are fated to rule this world.

gandalf,

Two riddles for you;

What is consumed in fire ?

When two great armies meet in a battle, [apart from the victor] what is revealed after the battle ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #18 - May 19^th, 2013 at 1:34am

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 10:29pm:

And your current push to outlaw criticism of Islam.

Its not my push.

You are a Muslim - it's your push. What are you doing to prevent Muslims from outlawing criticism of Islam?

Nothing.

SO you are a run of the mill cowardly and deceitful Muslim who pops up saying that things are not done by him - but does bvgger all else.

And when the outlawing of criticism of Islam is in place, you will go along with it because you are sh!tting yourself about what the bearded monsters would do to you if you spoke up.

The world is onto you, pal. You are full of righteous indingnation in this direction but are an arse-cowering cowards towards the bearded fvckers because you are scared of them.

You argue with the likes of me because you know that you are safe.

You will not argue and stand up to the "behead this and that" crowd because you know that they will rip you limb from limb if you did.

It is much simpler than that soren, imo.

gandalf is a moslem.

gandalf is being a moslem - in a non-moslem jurisdiction.

I'm a moslem. And you are not.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1349314004/128#128
Quote:

Today moslems [e.g. living within Australia] may claim that they are 'moderate', or, that they are tolerant of others.

But when it suits their purpose [i.e. when Allah provides the 'opportunity'], those very same moslems will always revert to type.

And they WILL then join their Jihad brothers, and they WILL murder those who oppose them.

All moslems, are playing a 'long' game, a deceitful game.

" The Prophet said, "War is deceit." "

bukhari/ #004.052.269

All moslems [including those who are residing in non-moslem host nations] have the nature [politically], of 'flags in the wind'.

i.e.
Publicly, many moslems will studiously try to reflect the political environment in which they 'travel'.

Quote:

Today good moslems may claim that they are 'moderate', and tolerant.

But when it suits their purpose [i.e. when Allah provides the 'opportunity'], those good moslems will always revert to type.

And they will then join their Jihad brothers, in murdering those who oppose them.

All moslems, are playing a 'long' game, a deceitful game.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #19 - May 19^th, 2013 at 2:39am

freediver wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 8:13pm:

This post is largely a response to earlier discussions with Brian Ross. Rather than constantly explaining that I am not doing all the things he accuses me of (eg attempting to deny democracy and freedom of speech to Muslims), I would like to explain for his benefit, and for the benefit of other newcomers to the forum, why I criticise Islam. I thought this would be obvious from the wiki, but apparently not.

The conflicts between Islam and western values are the crux of my criticism of Islam and the threat I think it poses.

None of this is about classic terrorism or painting all Muslims as terrorists.

FD,

People like yourself, are coming to recognize the threat to our rights and freedoms, which allowing ISLAM/moslems to live among us, poses [threats, which you have outlined below].

And yet people like yourself, are still pretending.

Pretending that our tolerance of evil [tolerance of an evil entity, living among us], is a virtue.

Quote:

I will focus on three of the more direct threats posed by Islam globally and locally. These largely revolve around freedom of speech, democracy and genocide.

FD,

It is my contention, my argument, that we [personally] take on the evil which we [personally] choose to tolerate.

We become the evil, or, we become subsumed, by that evil.

We need to have the will, to separate ourselves from some things FD.

And the inherent evil of ISLAM, is one of those things which we need to separate ourselves from!

And that means separating ourselves from moslems - from those who choose to be, moslems.

'Tolerance', is not always a virtue.

Sometimes discrimination is a greater virtue than 'tolerance'.

Dictionary;
discrimination = =
1 the action of discriminating against people.
2 recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another. good judgement or taste.

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« Last Edit: May 19^th, 2013 at 2:56am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #20 - May 19^th, 2013 at 2:45am

Yadda wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 2:39am:

We need to have the will, to separate ourselves from some things FD.

And the inherent evil of ISLAM, is one of those things which we need to separate ourselves from!

And that means separating ourselves from moslems - from those who choose to be, moslems.

But i am not holding my breath!

I know that such a view can never be widely accepted, in a society which has become so morally corrupt, as our society has become.i

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."

Karl Popper

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."

Thomas Mann

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #21 - May 19^th, 2013 at 3:22am

THE SIMPLE TRUTH IS THAT;

We [who have a love for truth, justice, freedom], do need to choose to separate ourselves from moslems.

And, our government needs to legislate, to >> force << moslems living among us, to choose, that if they want to remain being a part of our society, then they need to renounce ISLAM.

And if moslems living among us refuse to renounce ISLAM, then those moslems need to leave Australia, to go, and live in a majority moslem jurisdiction.

Why so ?

Because the values which a moslem takes on, and embraces, when he/she chooses to embrace ISLAM, are incompatible, with the values which many of us respect - those values which we aspire to [and have a love for] are values such as truth, justice, freedom.

If we want Peace, then we must always defend the right to speak the truth.

JUSTICE, and all rights and freedoms evolve from our respect for truth.

All moslems HATE truth, >> because << truth exposes ISLAM/moslems to scrutiny.

And ISLAM does not allow anyone to scrutinize its wicked worldview or it wicked supremacist doctrines.

IMAGE.....

"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!"
"Disbelievers must not be permitted to scrutinise or criticise ISLAM!"

To moslems, the Jihad against the enemies of Allah's religion, is never considered to be an immoral or hypocritical [or an ungrateful] act.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: the threats posed by Islam Reply #22 - May 19^th, 2013 at 8:30am Yadda wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 12:50am: You know very well, that the heart of ISLAM, are the contents of ISLAM's foundation texts [the Koran and the Hadith]. Texts which declare and command a never ending warfare against those who reject ISLAM. Yadda, I humbly disagree - as do the vast majority of muslims.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #23 - May 19^th, 2013 at 9:38am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 10:22pm:

Goodness me - around 200 idiots shout a few slogans in downtown Sydney, which is immediately and widely condemned by muslims nation wide - and suddenly our way of life is under siege.

The only Australians who are under threat by this hysteria, are muslims themselves. 2% of the population are not likely to overthrow our democracy - but it is very likely this minority will be further victimised and discriminated against by the majority. Especially when we see hysterics like FDs rant here stoking the flames.

Gandalf, you could always try responding to what I actually posted. 200 people threatening to behead those who insult Islam is a vulgar attack on our freedom of speech and it will cause some people to self censor out of fear, especially when it is part of a clear global campaign of violence and intimidation.

Quote:

There were *NO* youtube video protests in Melbourne. Those pesky duplicitous muslim leaders took measures to make sure it didn't happen.

That's a bit more like it Gandalf. Thanks. If you have any more details I would be interested to know how this discussion played out. Did they convince the would-be protestors to self censor for the benefit of Islam? Did they pull out the "obeying the law of the land" line? Or did they convince them of the inherent value of freedom of speech and the need to protect it?

Quote:

For what its worth, I believe I contribute positively to my local (non muslim) community, through my every day behaviour and activities. I believe that the vast majority of muslims in Australia are doing similar things in their local communities - coexisting, contributing to the local community, and presenting the right face of islam. IMO these local behaviours all over the country feed into the national face of islam, which helps create a mainstream Australian muslim community that is loyal, integrated, pro-peace and anti-extremism.

What about pro-freedom, pro-human rights and pro-democracy? Or is that too much to ask from a Muslim?

Quote:

You ask what mainstream muslims like me are doing to stop the extremists - well look around you - is Australia being terrorised by mad bearded mullahs demanding that freedom and democracy be abolished? No.

Actually, there are quite a few in jail on terrorism charges. Also, Bali was pretty close to home. We are a small nation. We do not expect to be the centre of attention.

Quote:

Look at the glaring absense of any mainstream Australian-islamic movement calling for violence and/or intolerance to be imposed on Australians - mark that down to the nature of Australia's muslim community.

How about we mark this one down to common sense? Even Muslims seem to have it. Or are you suggesting it is an impressive change for Muslims to not start throwing their weight around when they only account for 2% or whatever of the population?

Quote:

Note 20 pages of debate in which not one of you have been able to come up with a single shred of evidence demonstrating the mainstream muslim community's violent/extremist intent anywhere in the western world.

There is plenty of evidence. You just define it out of existence.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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freediver

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #24 - May 19^th, 2013 at 9:41am

Quote:

You are a Muslim - it's your push. What are you doing to prevent Muslims from outlawing criticism of Islam?

Nothing.

He is attacking anyone who stands in their way. Apparently we are the bigger threat.

Quote:

Does that mean that all Christians should be held responsible for them? That Christianity itself, which was used to justify them, more often than not, should be considered the enemy?

The Christian institutions were considered the enemy of freedom for a long time. This is because they were an enemy of freedom. Christians were responsible for this and they took it upon themselves to bring about the necessary change. They did not leave it up to Muslims or anyone else and complain every step of the way that the Muslims were falsely blaming them. They did not constantly attempt to change the topic and insist it is more important to figure out who is not to blame than to defend personal freedom and human rights. As soon as Muslims take it upon themselves to end the thuggery and stand up for freedom, we will stop criticising them for failing to do so. At the moment all they seem capable of is whining about being falsely implicated. Most of the world's Muslims live without basic freedoms and human rights. Islam is largely to blame for this. Even Gandalf's examples of "good" Muslim countries leave a lot to be desired.

Quote:

'cause if you only think Muslims should be treated this way

What way? What am I actually doing that bothers you so much?

Quote:

or that their religion is to blame for all the evil things that some Muslims have done

Muhammed slaughtered people who disagreed with him. So do his followers. Islam is a barrier to reform. Is this just more pointless hair splitting over whether it is to blame for "all" or "some" of it? At what point do you acknowledge the role Islam plays in the denial of basic personal freedoms and human rights? Do you think Abu would have turned into the person he has become if it were not for his conversion to Islam?

Quote:

When are you going to realise that there are good and bad people in every religious group? Mmm?

I realise it. When are you going to stop missing the point with every single post you make?

Quote:

.....no I don't actually - the figures quoted, although they sound authoritative are totally fabricated and randomly generated

Having said that I think the percentages are about right

LOL. Who needs facts when you can just make it all up eh?

Quote:

You can easily check these by conducting your own research into the major wars

So you just make things up, but everyone else should do the research?

Quote:

List the wars that you classify as "muslim" in orgin

Why don't you do this? Is it because it would merely highlight the extent of your ignorance?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Chimp_Logic Gold Member Offline πολιτικός Posts: 4826 Mawson Base Gender:	Re: the threats posed by Islam Reply #25 - May 19^th, 2013 at 9:56am ....according to fundamental Hamiltonian operators, Muslims are at least 13.5 times more peaceful as people and form 23.7 times more coherent and compassionate communities than Judeo/Christian cult nations.
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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21389 A cat with a view	Re: the threats posed by Islam Reply #26 - May 19^th, 2013 at 10:13am The curse is always the same. A hatred of truth. Evidenced in; Lies, damned lies, and moslem logic chimp logic. "....To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."
Back to top	"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 IP Logged

Soren

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #27 - May 19^th, 2013 at 10:46am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

You are a Muslim - it's your push. What are you doing to prevent Muslims from outlawing criticism of Islam?

Nothing.

SO you are a run of the mill cowardly and deceitful Muslim who pops up saying that things are not done by him - but does bvgger all else.

And when the outlawing of criticism of Islam is in place, you will go along with it because you are sh!tting yourself about what the bearded monsters would do to you if you spoke up.

The world is onto you, pal. You are full of righteous indingnation in this direction but are an arse-cowering cowards towards the bearded fvckers because you are scared of them.

You argue with the likes of me because you know that you are safe.

You will not argue and stand up to the "behead this and that" crowd because you know that they will rip you limb from limb if you did.

Come on Soren, be reasonable.

Islam is not a monolith - as I believe Brian has pointed out to you several times. There is the islamic community in Australia, UK, Iran, Saudi Arabia - etc etc. I happen to be a member of the Australian muslim community, and it may surprise you to learn that my primary concern is the Australian muslim community - in the context of the greater Australian community.

For what its worth, I believe I contribute positively to my local (non muslim) community, through my every day behaviour and activities. I believe that the vast majority of muslims in Australia are doing similar things in their local communities - coexisting, contributing to the local community, and presenting the right face of islam. IMO these local behaviours all over the country feed into the national face of islam, which helps create a mainstream Australian muslim community that is loyal, integrated, pro-peace and anti-extremism. For those of you who scoff at this assessment, its time for a reality check: a grand total of one single violent protest in the history of muslim settlement in Australia - and that protest totalling now more than a couple of hundred people - even fewer who were actually acting violent. Organised by a group that had no affiliation with the official islamic bodies of Sydney or NSW - bodies that represent mainstream islam. And what was the reaction by mainstream muslims? Immediate and uncategorical condemnation - but even further than that, proactive measures to prevent a similar occurance in Melbourne or anywhere else in Australia (successful) - plus the extraordinary and unprecedented move of labelling any muslim protest against the youtube video as "unislamic".

You ask what mainstream muslims like me are doing to stop the extremists - well look around you - is Australia being terrorised by mad bearded mullahs demanding that freedom and democracy be abolished? No. Mark that down to the "hijacking" (if you like) of Australia's muslim community by the anti-violence, anti-extremism sect of islam. Look at the glaring absense of any mainstream Australian-islamic movement calling for violence and/or intolerance to be imposed on Australians - mark that down to the nature of Australia's muslim community. Note 20 pages of debate in which not one of you have been able to come up with a single shred of evidence demonstrating the mainstream muslim community's violent/extremist intent anywhere in the western world. Again, mark that down to the nature of the mainstream muslim community in the western world.

Two things - I do not doubt your sincerity. And I do not doubt that if and when Muslims reach 5-10% of the population, they will start aggressively and intolerantly demanding concessions. It happens evrywhere and will happen here.

Islam is tolerant when it cannot do otherwise. But there is no Muslim majority country that is tolerant -when Islam is in charge, freedom, tolerance are gone.

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polite_gandalf

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Australian Politics

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #28 - May 19^th, 2013 at 12:17pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:38am:

200 people threatening to behead those who insult Islam is a vulgar attack on our freedom of speech

I agree. But how much significance you want to attach to this particular attack is up to you I guess. Personally, I consider a few dozen (and no FD, even amongst the tiny number of protestors in total, only a small fraction of those were behaving violently) - bigots carrying out the only protest of its kind in the history of muslim settlement in Australia - and which was immediately condemned by mainstream islamic bodies all over the country, to be less significant in the context of the survival of our democracy than you are making it out to be.

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:38am:

Did they convince the would-be protestors to self censor for the benefit of Islam?

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:38am:

it will cause some people to self censor out of fear

I think this raises an interesting perspective in relation to who is under threat by whom in our democratic society. Evidently many non-muslim Australians see a great threat to our democracy by this single incident (the only one of its kind in the history of muslim settlement). Yet I would suspect that many other Australians would see a greater threat in the vilification of an entire minority, through baselessly attributing motives to their behaviour (ie they merely "self censor" instead of genuinely being opposed to extremism), not to mention simply making stuff up about what happened (eg an imaginary riot in Melbourne). Such vilification either ignores the constant overtures and messages of harmonious coexistence and non-violence, or make up creative sinnister explanations for these overtures. I would suspect a great number of Australians would see this sort of vilification a far greater threat to our freedom and democracy - not just for the muslim community, but for everyone.

Really FD, you are getting into Yadda territory - where you set your argument up to be unfalsifiable - by firstly claiming muslims never do anything about extremism (except promote it), then when evidence is presented refuting this, it can simply be dismissed as "self censorship", duplicitous, insincere etc.

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:38am:

That's a bit more like it Gandalf. Thanks. If you have any more details I would be interested to know how this discussion played out. Did they convince the would-be protestors to self censor for the benefit of Islam? Did they pull out the "obeying the law of the land" line? Or did they convince them of the inherent value of freedom of speech and the need to protect it?

One might expect a bit more humility after being caught out making up a blatant lie FD Wink

Rather than responding arrogantly like this every time I point out your defamatory embellishments - such as this fairy tale about the Melbourne riot, as well as the claim that every single one of the protestors was calling for violence and beheadings - you might be better served humbly acknowledging that you did indeed blow this thing right out of proportion, and that a little bit of perspective (like the fact it is the only protest of its kind in the history of muslim settlement in Australia) puts this in an entirely different light.

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:38am:

How about we mark this one down to common sense?

How about we mark this down to completely baseless? I get sick of asking for evidence that mainstream muslims are simply 'biding their time' or whatever, and are completely dedicated to their desire for violence.

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:38am:

There is plenty of evidence. You just define it out of existence.

No, the problem is that you lot can't define your own claims. As I keep repeating its your (collective) claim that mainstream muslims have a violent intent, yet whenever you attempt to substantiate this, its either by quoting texts - incorrectly attributing your interpretation of islamic doctrine to muslim's interpretation - or picking out individual anecdotes - a non-representative extremist preacher here, or a former contributor to this forum there - none of which says nothing about what the majority of muslims are actually teaching and promoting.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #29 - May 19^th, 2013 at 4:36pm

Quote:

I agree. But how much significance you want to attach to this particular attack is up to you I guess. Personally, I consider a few dozen (and no FD, even amongst the tiny number of protestors in total, only a small fraction of those were behaving violently) - bigots carrying out the only protest of its kind in the history of muslim settlement in Australia - and which was immediately condemned by mainstream islamic bodies all over the country, to be less significant in the context of the survival of our democracy than you are making it out to be.

I did not actually criticise them for their violence. The attack on freedom of speech and the message that was sent to the Australian community is far more significant than the violence involved in the protest. I think you should figure out what I am criticising them for before you tell me I am overstating its significance.

Quote:

I think this raises an interesting perspective in relation to who is under threat by whom in our democratic society. Evidently many non-muslim Australians see a great threat to our democracy by this single incident

I explained it quite clearly in the opening post. Do you ever tire of creating these silly strawmen?

Quote:

Yet I would suspect that many other Australians would see a greater threat in the vilification of an entire minority

No they wouldn't. Our society mocks religions and religious people. Constantly. Mercilessly. Except Muslims of course. You can't wind them up because they are crazy and will kill you. 30 years after the release of the life of Brian, and Muslims take to the streets over a dodgy internet video, and you expect the Australian community to back you?

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through baselessly attributing motives to their behaviour (ie they merely "self censor" instead of genuinely being opposed to extremism)

That is not what I said. I am genuinely interested in the internal reasonings they used to stop the protest. Again, read the opening post. i specifically pointed out that it is nothing to do with classical terrorism.

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not to mention simply making stuff up about what happened (eg an imaginary riot in Melbourne)

Who is making stuff up now?

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Such vilification either ignores the constant overtures and messages of harmonious coexistence and non-violence

This mindless propaganda constantly from you constantly ignores the issues I have raised. I notice you did not respond to my questions about support for freedom, democracy and human rights and you instead stuck to the same meaningless but media-friendly one-liners we see all the time. Why is that?

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or make up creative sinnister explanations for these overtures

It was a question. I am genuinely interested to know the answer.

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I would suspect a great number of Australians would see this sort of vilification a far greater threat to our freedom and democracy - not just for the muslim community, but for everyone.

I suspect you don't have a clue. Muslims march through the streets with banners calling for people to be beheaded over a video, and you think criticising them for that is the threat to freedom. That is how you protect freedom. You seem more like Abu every day.

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Really FD, you are getting into Yadda territory - where you set your argument up to be unfalsifiable - by firstly claiming muslims never do anything about extremism

Again Gandalf, I raised some very specific issues in my opening post. Why do you insist on making things up rather than addressing what I actually say?

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I get sick of asking for evidence that mainstream muslims are simply 'biding their time'

So why are you afraid to address the issues of freedom, democracy, and human rights?

Quote:

No, the problem is that you lot can't define your own claims.

I made my claims very clear in the opening post. All you have to do is read it. It was you who invented those nebulous claims, then demanded everyone provide evidence for them. That is not how it works Gandalf.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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