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the threats posed by Islam (Read 44952 times)
Karnal
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #45 - May 20th, 2013 at 1:09pm
 
Soren wrote on May 19th, 2013 at 9:37pm:
Brian Ross wrote on May 19th, 2013 at 9:18pm:
freediver wrote on May 19th, 2013 at 6:30pm:
Quote:
So perhaps you can explain to me how this "message sent to the Australian community" of a few dozen thugs that is roundly rejected and condemned by just about everyone - especially the mainstream muslim community - is in any way significant in terms of the threat posed to our democracy.


It was an attack on freedom of speech. I never attempted to portray it as a direct threat to our democracy. Perhaps you need to read it again.


And you aren't doing exactly the same, trying to deny them their right to Freedom of Speech, FD?   Roll Eyes

You are as equally guilty as they are, I would suggest.  They are bigots, you are a bigot.  They seek to deny Freedom of Speech.  You seek to deny them, their Freedom of Speech.  Pot, kettle, black!   Roll Eyes



Only Muslims riot when non-Muslims exercise their right to freedom of speech.

I have not seen street marches with placards calling for the beheading of Muslims who oppose freedom of speech, have you, 'Brian'??





No, but I’ve seen a few Christian protests against such blasphemies as the artwork P!ss Christ, the movie the Last Temptation of Christ, the band Marylin Manson, the  Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras parade, along with the odd proposed mosque or prayer hall. A Christian group in Amerika even protests at the funerals of US soldiers for some reason or another - complete with placards condemning them to hell.

And yes, quite a few Christians have marched with placards calling for the death penalty for abortionists and homosexuals.

If you think the Muselmen are the only ones with a monopoly on self righteous indignation, you’ve been smelling your own cheese.
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Soren
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #46 - May 20th, 2013 at 2:39pm
 
Did you know?


Iran resurrects Salman Rushdie threat

16 Sep 2012

Iran has seized on widespread Muslim outrage over a film insulting the Prophet Mohammad to revive the death threat against Salman Rushdie, raising the reward for killing him by US$500,000 (£320,000).

Ayatollah Hassan Sanei, head of a powerful state foundation providing relief to the poor, said the film would never have been made if the order to execute Rushdie, issued by the late Iranian spiritual leader, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, had been carried out.
...
"If the imam's order was carried out, the further insults in the form of caricatures, articles and films would not have taken place. The impertinence of the grudge-filled enemies of Islam, which is occurring under the flag of the Great Satan, America and the racist Zionists, can only be blocked by the absolute administration of this Islamic order."






How to achieve freedom of speech and conscience with Islamic characterisics.

But I forget - ayatollahs are just a tiny minority of Msulims; and anyway, there is nuffin Islamic about fatwas, everybody does them all the time; and anyway the west does it much worse; and anyway we went for the oil; and, and, and the Jews!!!


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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #47 - May 20th, 2013 at 3:36pm
 
keep flogging that dead horse Soren.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #48 - May 20th, 2013 at 7:19pm
 
freediver wrote on May 18th, 2013 at 8:13pm:
This post is largely a response to earlier discussions with Brian Ross.
The conflicts between Islam and western values are the crux of my criticism of Islam and the threat I think it poses. None of this is about classic terrorism or painting all Muslims as terrorists.

Freedom of speech

There is a global campaign by Muslims to end freedom of speech by criminalising blasphemy. This is the logical first step in establishing Shariah law, by preventing people from being able to peacefully oppose it, either from within areas dominated by Muslims or from outside.

The pointy end of this campaign are the hundreds of Muslims who marched through Sydney and Melbourne behind banners calling for the beheading of an American who posted a dodgy youtube video mocking Muhammed. It is the death of more than 200 people during protests against cartoons published in a Danish newspaper that mocked Muhammed. It is the attempts, often successful, to assassinate journalists, authors and various critics of Islam.

The thick end of the wedge is attempts by Muslims and Muslim countries to criminalise blasphemy and remove protections on freedom of speech within European countries, the EU parliament, and the UN. America appears to be safe from such attacks on our basic freedoms, but elsewhere the threat is genuine and it is unlikely that Australia would escape unscathed if Europe capitulates.

Freedom of speech is the first basic freedom that we will lose if we do not vigorously stand up to both of these methods of attack. All of our other rights and freedoms will also be lost if we lose this battle. This battle is genuine and it is global, and the outcome is not certain. The way to win of course is to protect our freedom of speech by exercising it at every opportunity. This means not self censoring in the face of threats of physical violence. It means not self censoring out of fear that we will inflame a delicate situation or hurt people's feelings. These are mere tools by the enemy in the battle to destroy your rights and freedoms. If a Muslim feels that they are wrongly associated with efforts to destroy freedom and democracy it is their fault for not doing enough to protect freedom and democracy from fellow Muslims. It is their fault for not being able to make up their own mind whether they support freedom of speech and the right of people to mock Muhammed. It is their fault for not speaking out in defense of freedom of speech against the vulgar displays of hatred by other Muslims. It is their fault for feeling compelled to support efforts to criminalise blasphemy. It is not our fault for failing to walk on eggshells while attempting to protect our freedom of speech by exercising it.

Finally, it means not allowing our freedoms, or the freedoms of other western nations, to be lost in the same process. It means actively encouraging and protecting vulnerable freedoms in other parts of the world that are less fortunate than us to be able to take freedom of speech for granted. It means participating in cultural imperialism.


Those protestors calling for those who insult their pedophile prophet to have their heads chopped off were mainstream muslims.

Saudi Arabia the homeland of Islam chops heads off those who insult their prophet  yet Gandalf wants us to overlook this fact, Iran hangs those who insult Mohammad yet for some reason Gandalf thinks the Islamic regime is somehow not mainstream Islam perhaps it is because they are shia.

Quote:
Defamation of religion is an issue that has been repeatedly addressed by some member states of the UN since 1999.
Several non binding resolutions have been voted on and accepted by the UN condemning defamation of religion.
The motions sponsored on behalf of the Organization of the Islamic conference
more here-www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation_of_religion_and_the_United_Nations


The OIC have been pushing for an international blasphemy law in the UN,the OIC do not recognise the Universal declaration of human rights yet they want the UN to give them their blasphemy law so they can deprive people of their human rights.

So who are the OIC?
Quote:
The organization of Islamic Cooperation,OIC, is an international organization consisting of 57 member states.
The organization states that it is the collective voice of the muslim world
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_the_Islamic_Conference


In 2008 the OIC said they want to recognise the Universal declaration of human rights instead of their Cairo declaration where the last 2 articles show sharia law trumps human rights, wanting to and doing are 2 separate things and wiki has again shown how inconsistant it is with Islamic topics.
Why is Hamza Kashgari in jail if the OIC recognise the UDHR this is a clear violation of article 18.
Hamza Kashgari being in jail for thought crimes is evidence the OIC have not implemented the UDHR and the lack of outrage shows they have no real intention of implementing the UDHR.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Kashgari

The OIC say they are the collective voice of the muslim world and they have been pushing the UN for an international blasphemy law which contradicts the lies and bullshit from Gandalf.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #49 - May 20th, 2013 at 7:37pm
 
Quote:
So who threatening violence at a planned Melbourne rally?


I didn't say anything about threatening violence. I asked you how they managed to convince the would-be protestors in Melbourne not to go ahead.

Quote:
Like I said, the views of the mainstream islamic community is identical to the mainstream non-muslims Australian community on these issues.


Can you elaborate please? Are you saying for example, that most Muslims support the right to mock Muhammed? The article you quoted from paints a different picture...

Quote:
"Muslim community did not organise any rallies in Melbourne ... WE CONDEMN ANY ATTACK AGAINST OUR BELOVED PROPHET MOUHAMMAD (saw) and against ISLAM," it said.

"But we must reply in a calculated and well planned way. WE MUST NOT ENCOURAGE FOOLISH BEHAVIOUR that will lead to a greater harm to the Muslim community. Please BOYCOTT the Melbourne protest on Sunday 23rd September because the Muslim community HAS NOT ORGANIZED IT please spread the word! Salam."


It doesn't exactly sound like they are condemning the Muslim protestors because of the implications for freedom of speech. Even when they are being as progressive as it gets for Muslims they are still working to undermine freedom of speech - just in a more calculated and planned way. Do you remember feigning insult when I initially asked if this was possibly the justification used within the Islamic community to stop the protests?

On the more general issue of supporting all Australian values, how do you feel about the gay and lesbian mardi gras? How does the broader Australian Muslim community feel?
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« Last Edit: May 20th, 2013 at 7:48pm by freediver »  

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Chimp_Logic
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #50 - May 20th, 2013 at 8:27pm
 
Soren wrote on May 20th, 2013 at 2:39pm:
Did you know?


Iran resurrects Salman Rushdie threat

16 Sep 2012

Iran has seized on widespread Muslim outrage over a film insulting the Prophet Mohammad to revive the death threat against Salman Rushdie, raising the reward for killing him by US$500,000 (£320,000).

Ayatollah Hassan Sanei, head of a powerful state foundation providing relief to the poor, said the film would never have been made if the order to execute Rushdie, issued by the late Iranian spiritual leader, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, had been carried out.
...
"If the imam's order was carried out, the further insults in the form of caricatures, articles and films would not have taken place. The impertinence of the grudge-filled enemies of Islam, which is occurring under the flag of the Great Satan, America and the racist Zionists, can only be blocked by the absolute administration of this Islamic order."






How to achieve freedom of speech and conscience with Islamic characterisics.

But I forget - ayatollahs are just a tiny minority of Msulims; and anyway, there is nuffin Islamic about fatwas, everybody does them all the time; and anyway the west does it much worse; and anyway we went for the oil; and, and, and the Jews!!!





Iran hasn't attacked any other nation in over 250 years

Lets just see how many unprovoked attacks were carried out by the USA since the end of WW2

The USA has attacked about 37 nations since the end of WW2 that has resulted in over 24 million deaths - mainly civilian

Gee, I wonder who the model Peace Nation is on this planet?
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #51 - May 20th, 2013 at 8:31pm
 
Chimp you are confusing impotence with benevolence. Abu was fond of this trick. Correlation does not equal causation.
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #52 - May 20th, 2013 at 8:47pm
 
freediver wrote on May 20th, 2013 at 8:31pm:
Chimp you are confusing impotence with benevolence. Abu was fond of this trick. Correlation does not equal causation.


You seem to be multiplying everything you encounter by minus 1 on the basis that the truth not only eludes you, but even any residual truths singes the follicles in your nostrils

You cannot run away from the truth forever - you are neither FREE nor a competent DIVER

It will hunt you down in the end and you will weep like a newly born infant.
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #53 - May 20th, 2013 at 9:00pm
 
Why am I not surprised that a Muslim apologist uses phrases like hunt me down?
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #54 - May 20th, 2013 at 9:05pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 20th, 2013 at 3:36pm:
keep flogging that dead horse Soren.



Er... not dead.
And that's the entire point of this renewal of the fatwah - Rushdie is not dead and according to this set of mainstream mullah, that's why assorted others disrespect Islam.

They want to kill the chicken (Rushdie) and let the monkeys (kuffr) watch. That's how you spread "respect for Islam".

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #55 - May 20th, 2013 at 9:14pm
 
freediver wrote on May 20th, 2013 at 7:37pm:
I asked you how they managed to convince the would-be protestors in Melbourne not to go ahead.


And I told you all that I know. Do feel free to go to the odd news site or pick up a newspaper every now and then FD.

freediver wrote on May 20th, 2013 at 7:37pm:
Can you elaborate please? Are you saying for example, that most Muslims support the right to mock Muhammed?


I maintain that the vast majority of muslims support the principle of free speech. However there are a couple of problems when relating this to the Muhammad cartoons.

Firstly, it will of course be an emotional issue - given the importance muslims place on their prophet. People generally don't have a good track record of behaving calmly and rationally when emotions are high.

Secondly, there is a fine line between free speech and a deliberate campaign of intimidation and/or vilification. The latter is illegal under Australian law. Thats not to say drawing offensive cartoons are vilifying by nature - they are not. However its quite another matter if its part of a wider campaign to demonise and stir hatred against an entire community. I am quite certain that at least some elements of the pro-cartoon crowd had such a campaign in mind.

Do these two considerations justify rioting and violence by muslims in response? No. Does it mean that with free speech comes responsibility to act with consideration and humanity? In my opinion, yes.

freediver wrote on May 20th, 2013 at 7:37pm:
The article you quoted from paints a different picture


The article paints a picture of muslims wanting to peacefully condemn the video. I'm wondering what your objection to this is - given your such a fan of free speech and all. This in fact is not atypical behaviour of those who profess to stand up for free speech - it must be defended at all costs - until the other side gets up and starts exercising their right to free speech.

Lets be clear about one thing: those self righteous defenders of free speech who defend the rights of offensive cartoon and video publishers - should be defending the right of muslims to peacefully condemn those same cartoons and videos - with the same amount of zeal. And just so that we're absolutely clear, the vast majority of the cartoon and video protests by muslims were peaceful.

freediver wrote on May 20th, 2013 at 7:37pm:
they are still working to undermine freedom of speech - just in a more calculated and planned way.


Ok, so just clarify for me please - are you referring to an attempt to peacefully protest an offensive video as an attempt to undermine free speech?

freediver wrote on May 20th, 2013 at 7:37pm:
Do you remember feigning insult


no.  Roll Eyes
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Soren
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #56 - May 20th, 2013 at 10:15pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 20th, 2013 at 9:14pm:
Lets be clear about one thing: those self righteous defenders of free speech who defend the rights of offensive cartoon and video publishers - should be defending the right of muslims to peacefully condemn those same cartoons and videos - with the same amount of zeal. And just so that we're absolutely clear, the vast majority of the cartoon and video protests by muslims were peaceful.



And nobody has batted an eyelid about peaceful protests. People can oppose your views and your protesting even, but your right is not questioned.

But let's be clear about one thing: holding a placard, even calmly and silently, calling for anyone's beheading is not peaceful.


"Truth is great, and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them:

Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities. And though we well know that this Assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of Legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare that the rights hereby asserted, are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right."

This is by Jefferson, from the Virginia Freedom of Religion Statute, but it sums up the Western attitude to religious freedom.

Needless to say, it is radically incompatible with what Islam teaches about religious freedom.

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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #57 - May 20th, 2013 at 11:53pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on May 20th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
Iran hasn't attacked any other nation in over 250 years


That's so true Chimp. Problem is it did not exist before 1935.
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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%
 
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #58 - May 21st, 2013 at 11:02am
 
The only threat posed by Islam is the one inside your heads.

Some Muslims may be a threat but that is a tiny minority of extremists.  Just as there are Christian extremists which pose a threat but we don't hear claims that Christianity is a threat.  I wonder why?   Roll Eyes
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
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Re: the threats posed by Islam
Reply #59 - May 21st, 2013 at 11:04am
 
Soren wrote on May 20th, 2013 at 2:39pm:
Did you know?


Iran resurrects Salman Rushdie threat



Must be a slow or bad news day in Tehran.  Good way to distract the masses in the West as well...   Cool  Grin
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
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