Australian Politics Forum - How can we determine who is a real moslem ?

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21612
A cat with a view

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #90 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 8:47pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 4:43pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 12:15pm:

The Rohingya have been in Northern Burma (Rakhine state) since the 8th century.

Bloody Muslim immigrants again.

Always causing trouble. Cool

Wherever there are moslems immigrants there is blood being spilled.

Why so ?

Because moslems feel a sense of entitlement [which is taught to them by ISLAM].

......an entitlement to exercise their 'freedom of religion' - to kill the kuffar.

IMAGE...

London, moslem street protests.
Moslems demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion',
.....to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

To the moslem psyche....
"Insulting ISLAM" = = daring to choose to be a non-moslem.

Moslems = = religious bigots.i
IMAGE...

Sydney, 2012, moslem street protests.
Moslems, religious bigots, 'demonstrating', just how 'peaceful' ISLAM and moslems really are.
Moslems demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion',
.....to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

i

Who is a moslem ?

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

And what does ISLAM have to say, about unbelief ?

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

A moslem, is a person who chooses to embrace a philosophy [ISLAM], which teaches moslems that it is 'lawful' for moslems, to kill those, who do not believe, as they believe.

Who is a moslem ?

"Allah is my god, and Mohammed is his prophet."

[i.e. the Allah, and the Mohammed, as described in the Koran and Hadith]

By making such a declaration;

"I am a moslem."

;

.....every moslem, is choosing to directly associate themselves with the 'religious' violence which ISLAM justifies, legitimises, promotes and encourages [as a philosophy].

And every moslem is thereby associating >> themselves << with those violent criminal acts which are purposefully being done, 'in the name of Allah'.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #91 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 8:52pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 3:13pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 1:22pm:

Islam conquered the whole of the Eastern Roman Empire, covering North Africa, Greece and the Levant, then Spain, pushed as far as France

And how did the Romans come to control The Levant, North Africa etc? Tourist visas?

But lets take a look at the "barbaric" conquest of these lands:

Jerusalem - conquered by muslims in 637:

Quote:

Upon Umar's arrival in Jerusalem, a pact known as The Umariyya Covenant was composed. It surrendered the city and gave guarantees of civil and religious liberty to Christians in exchange for jizya. It was signed by caliph Umar on behalf of the Muslims, and witnessed by Khalid, Amr, Abdur Rahman bin Awf, and Muawiyah. In late April 637, Jerusalem was officially surrendered to the caliph.[16] For the first time, after almost 500 years of oppressive Roman rule, Jews were once again allowed to live and worship inside Jerusalem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(1099)

Then in 1099, the christian forces of light, liberated the city and returned it to civilization - summarily slaughtering around 60 thousand civilians - muslims, jews and eastern christians - as well as the execution of the entire muslim garrison.

But alas, the forces of darkness returned in 1187, when the barbarian Saladin conquered the city - forbidding any massacre of civilians, and allowing the vast majority of them to leave the city for a ransom. Even those who could not pay, most of them were eventually allowed to go free. Saladin then allowed christian pilgrimages to the city, and jewish and christian holy places remained in those group's control.

Conquest of Spain - 711-713

Spain at the time was ruled by those banner bearers of civilization - the Visigoths - best known for sacking Rome and ravaging the Italian peninsula during the 5th century. By the 8th century, the Visigothic conquerors of the Iberian peninsula represented some 1-2% of the population. The muslims from North Africa (mainly Berbers, who had been raiding the peninsula for centuries - mainly pre-islamic), invaded Spain, and the Visigoths fled. Finding themselves in control of almost the entire Iberian peninsula, the muslim rulers set about spreading their barbarity - building the largest and most culturally prosperous city in the entire world (Cordoba), giving Europe a taste of propserity the likes they had never seen. Native christians were largely left alone, and were allowed to live by their former Visigothic legal codes.

Damn those mindless, barbaric civilization-destroying muslims Angry

Great!!

SO if one finds a barbaric regime anywhere, one is free to invade and conquer!
YAY!!
That's why we are in Iraq and Afghanistan. Muslim principles, innit!!!
Show me a backward Muslim jurisdiction and I show you where it's ok to invade and take over. On Islamic principles, of course.

Thanks, Gandy.

Back to top

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #92 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm

Soren wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 8:52pm:

SO if one finds a barbaric regime anywhere, one is free to invade and conquer!

Freediver, and many many others will agree with this.

I too am opposed to aggressive expansion, but my point was to highlight your ill-thought out logic of islam spreading simply by murdering and destroying. The islamic nation invaded land that was controlled by two might empires - the Byzantines and the Persians, who themselves had acquired that land by conquest and brutal subjugation. Yet, as the example of Jerusalem shows, the idea of muslims indiscriminately slaughtering their way into these places is a complete nonsense. For once a conquering army conquered cities without rape and pillage, and without widescale massacres of innocents. You think word of that sort of thing goes unnoticed throughout the rest of the empire? The natives under the brutal yoke of the Byzantines and Sassinids undoubtedly welcomed the muslims as liberators. Its the only explanation for such a spectacular, rapid and long lasting conquest by such a small and ragtag military force.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21612
A cat with a view

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #93 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 9:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 8:52pm:

SO if one finds a barbaric regime anywhere, one is free to invade and conquer!

Freediver, and many many others will agree with this.

I too am opposed to aggressive expansion, but my point was to highlight your ill-thought out logic of islam spreading simply by murdering and destroying. The islamic nation invaded land that was controlled by two might empires - the Byzantines and the Persians, who themselves had acquired that land by conquest and brutal subjugation. Yet, as the example of Jerusalem shows, the idea of muslims indiscriminately slaughtering their way into these places is a complete nonsense. For once a conquering army conquered cities without rape and pillage, and without widescale massacres of innocents. You think word of that sort of thing goes unnoticed throughout the rest of the empire? The natives under the brutal yoke of the Byzantines and Sassinids undoubtedly welcomed the muslims as liberators. Its the only explanation for such a spectacular, rapid and long lasting conquest by such a small and ragtag military force.

What a fantasy.

What a faerie tale.

What moslem historic revisionism!

As if;
"Where ever moslems conquered others, moslems were welcomed as benign overlords."

Go and ask the Coptic Christians of Egypt - they remember their history, of moslem conquest !

"It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land....."

Koran 8.067

Koran [8:67 above] is instructive to moslems.

Instructive.

Instructive.

Instructive.

Koran 8.067 means that, it teaches moslems, that they should beleaguer and slaughter the enemies of ISLAM, in the land, so as to terrorise them, and so as to cower them, and to make them afraid of moslems.

So that later, moslems will more easily be able to defeat, and enslave a pliant, fearful enemy of ISLAM.

ISLAM wants all disbelievers, to fear moslems!

AGAIN, FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED;

Allah's Apostle said,

"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."

hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):....."

hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ? Reply #94 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 9:34pm so you reject the historical account of the muslim conquest of Jerusalem - as well as the Crusader conquest? Care to provide any evidence for this?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21612
A cat with a view

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #95 - Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 12:26pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 9:34pm:

so you reject the historical account of the muslim conquest of Jerusalem - as well as the Crusader conquest?

Care to provide any evidence for this?

'the historical account of the muslim conquest of Jerusalem' was written [and re-written, and re-written, etc] by moslems.

Therefore utterly unreliable.

Moslems are liars,

.....who make up stuff, who always change and embellish their moslem narratives, so as to give moslems a tactical advantage in today's circumstances.

Which is evidenced again, and again, and again, and again, and again, in differing moslem narratives.
.....about the narrative of inerrant Koran, about the narrative of the Jewish people, about the narrative of those moslems Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, etc.

"Lets make up a story which supports our Jihad against the infidels. Lets TELL LIES, to help us defeat the infidels."

e.g.

Quote:

Chief Muslim claims Jewish Temples never existed
March 15, 2007
"....The Jewish Temples never existed.......descriptions of the Jewish Temples in the Hebrew Tanach, in the Talmud and in Byzantine and Roman writings from the Temple periods were forged, and that the Torah was falsified to claim Biblical patriarchs and matriarchs were Jewish when indeed they were prophets for Islam."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=40628

Quote:

Temple Mount '100% Islamic'
June 01, 2008
"....Taysir Tamimi, chief Palestinian Justice and one of the most influential Muslim leaders in Israel, argued the Jewish Temples never existed,...."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65919

n.b. n.b. n.b......
How moslems re-act when historic accounts [from different sources], contradict the moslem narrative....

".....descriptions of the Jewish Temples in the Hebrew Tanach, in the Talmud and in Byzantine and Roman writings from the Temple periods were forged,...."

But of course they were!

I always believe what the moslems tell me, don't you ?

Hey, moslems wouldn't blatantly - LIE TO US.

"ISLAM is a virtuous and tolerant religion."

+++

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

google

Google;

taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;

we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

How Taqiyya Alters Islams Rules of War

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-wari

+++

"Dear muslim, YOU are the kuffar"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229682951/0#0
Quote:

Dear muslim, YOU are the kuffar, YOU are the unbeliever.

You who embrace ISLAM, your own lies and deception, have become a witness against you, before God.

You muslims insist that ONLY muslims are the 'properly guided'.

Is he who is on a path of lies and deception, 'properly guided'??

AN EXPLANATION OF THE WORD 'KUFFAR'...

"kuffar" = = "...is an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuffar

+++

Once again, arguments proffered by gandalf are demolished! Tongue

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21612
A cat with a view

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #96 - Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 1:00pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 9:34pm:

so you reject the historical account of the muslim conquest of Jerusalem - as well as the Crusader conquest?

Care to provide any evidence for this?

No wonder islamics are militant
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1223522110/67#67
Quote:

abu, why is it that muslims never mention, completely passover, that centuries before the Christian Crusades, that ISLAMIC 'missionaries' overran the Christian Holy lands in the 700's, with the sword, and their own crusade for Allah?

And i say it again, *with the sword*.

And then, those ISLAMIC 'missionaries' continued their ISLAMIC 'Crusade' into North Africa, then Spain, and some of southern Europe.

All at the point of a sword.

Google.... "Charles Martel"

Charles Martel halted ISLAM's advance into Europe, in 732.

And this ISLAMIC aggression, all happened CENTURIES before the 'evil' Christians attacked ISLAM in 1100's, in their own 'Crusade'
.....aggression against muslims which was provoked by muslims, because Christian pilgrims travelling to the 'holy lands' were being mistreated, and killed by muslims.

And lets not fail to mention the later, glorious expansion of ISLAM eastward, into the Indian subcontinent, where tens of millions of 'polytheists' were 'justly' put to the sword by ISLAM.

There is no peaceful ISLAM.

But only bloodthirsty, booty lusting ISLAM.

abu, instead of rejecting these facts, why don't you acknowledge these occurrences as fact?
....and admit that ISLAM, is not at all peaceful.
....but that ISLAM is an expansionist, violent, political, supremacist philosophy.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #97 - Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 1:45pm

So actually Yadda, what you described as "faerie tales", "a fantasy" and "moslem historic revisionism" is nothing of the sort right? Nothing I said about the 3 conquests of Jerusalem is disputed - least of all by you.

So what exactly is your objection?

All civilizations have gone on expansionist rampages Yadda - all. I am not trying to exclude muslims. However the myth of the muslims leaving nothing but death and destruction in their wake - is just that - a myth. When muslims went conquering in the 7th-8th century, they created a prosperous empire of culture and high learning - the likes of which the world had never before seen.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 40938

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #98 - Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 5:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 1:45pm:

So actually Yadda, what you described as "faerie tales", "a fantasy" and "moslem historic revisionism" is nothing of the sort right? Nothing I said about the 3 conquests of Jerusalem is disputed - least of all by you.

So what exactly is your objection?

All civilizations have gone on expansionist rampages Yadda - all. I am not trying to exclude muslims. However the myth of the muslims leaving nothing but death and destruction in their wake - is just that - a myth. When muslims went conquering in the 7th-8th century, they created a prosperous empire of culture and high learning - the likes of which the world had never before seen.

Mmmm, Assyrian, Hittite, Egyptian, Chinese, Greek, Persian, Roman Empires ring any bells, Gandalf?

The Muslim Empire was a great one but it wasn't quite as unprecedented as you're making out. Don't let hyperbole get the better of you, please.

Back to top

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #99 - Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 7:24pm

In terms of the sheer scale, it was unprecedented Brian.

Cordoba and Baghdad were the largest cities the world had ever seen. The geographic reach of islam was the largest any empire had ever seen, with islamic societies established from SE Asia, to the Iberian peninsula. The centres of higher learning in Baghdad, Cordoba, Cairo and Damascus were the largest and had the most extensive collection of books the world had ever seen.

Of course they inherited a lot of non-islamic culture and imported many ideas from outside the empire - but that is merely a testament to islam's commitment to culture and learning, contrary to the tired old death and destruction meme we are used to hearing.

And saying islam created the greatest cities and cultural centres the world had ever seen is not saying they achieved the most of any empire, or that it was the greatest empire ever - its merely testament to the sheer reach and scale of the empire - a scale that the Egyptians, Greeks, Persians - even the Romans simply didn't have access to. In fact I would argue that the Greeks (for example) deserve more recognition for what they achieved, with such a small population and size.

In short, it is not hyperbole for simply stating fact.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Socrates Gold Member Offline A Dog With A Bone Posts: 583 Gender:	Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ? Reply #100 - Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 7:44pm Offer one a nice piece of pork crackling........
Back to top	An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows. IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #101 - Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 8:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 7:24pm:

In terms of the sheer scale, it was unprecedented Brian.

Cordoba and Baghdad were the largest cities the world had ever seen. The geographic reach of islam was the largest any empire had ever seen, with islamic societies established from SE Asia, to the Iberian peninsula. The centres of higher learning in Baghdad, Cordoba, Cairo and Damascus were the largest and had the most extensive collection of books the world had ever seen.

Of course they inherited a lot of non-islamic culture and imported many ideas from outside the empire - but that is merely a testament to islam's commitment to culture and learning, contrary to the tired old death and destruction meme we are used to hearing.

And saying islam created the greatest cities and cultural centres the world had ever seen is not saying they achieved the most of any empire, or that it was the greatest empire ever - its merely testament to the sheer reach and scale of the empire - a scale that the Egyptians, Greeks, Persians - even the Romans simply didn't have access to. In fact I would argue that the Greeks (for example) deserve more recognition for what they achieved, with such a small population and size.

In short, it is not hyperbole for simply stating fact.

The role of the Arabs (indigenous Muslim Arabs) is wildly overstated in all this.
The Arab rulers harnessed the learning of the conquered Romans, Christians and Jews, very selectively.

There was no translation into Arabic of anything that may have conflicted with Islam - which left out all of ancient literature and philosophy. And the translators were the conquered Christians and Jews, not the invading Arabs.

And in any case, the window of inquiring, open-minded Islam closed fairly quickly and has remained firmly closed ever since.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 9:05pm by Soren »

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #102 - Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 11:52pm

Soren wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 8:57pm:

There was no translation into Arabic of anything that may have conflicted with Islam - which left out all of ancient literature and philosophy.

Complete rubbish Soren. You literally have no idea what you are talking about.

Soren wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 8:57pm:

And the translators were the conquered Christians and Jews, not the invading Arabs.

You are officially a complete joke Soren.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 40938

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #103 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 4:44pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 7:24pm:

In terms of the sheer scale, it was unprecedented Brian.

Cordoba and Baghdad were the largest cities the world had ever seen. The geographic reach of islam was the largest any empire had ever seen, with islamic societies established from SE Asia, to the Iberian peninsula. The centres of higher learning in Baghdad, Cordoba, Cairo and Damascus were the largest and had the most extensive collection of books the world had ever seen.

Of course they inherited a lot of non-islamic culture and imported many ideas from outside the empire - but that is merely a testament to islam's commitment to culture and learning, contrary to the tired old death and destruction meme we are used to hearing.

And saying islam created the greatest cities and cultural centres the world had ever seen is not saying they achieved the most of any empire, or that it was the greatest empire ever - its merely testament to the sheer reach and scale of the empire - a scale that the Egyptians, Greeks, Persians - even the Romans simply didn't have access to. In fact I would argue that the Greeks (for example) deserve more recognition for what they achieved, with such a small population and size.

In short, it is not hyperbole for simply stating fact.

China had bigger and more numerous cities.

China had bigger and more numerous places of learning with larger libraries than were known in the West.

The Mongol empire stretched from Europe to Korea and covered a greater area.

As I said, Gandalf, don't let hyperbole carry you away. The Muslim Empire was great but it wasn't the greatest. That accolade did not come until much later and belonged to the British Empire. It covered a large slice of the Earth, ruled more people and achieved greater things.

Back to top

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #104 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 5:52pm

Brian, here's a list of the biggest cities during the period 500-999AD. Baghdad was the biggest of all - even at the lowest estimate (900,000). The next biggest was Chang'an.

The Mongol empire did not spread until the 13th century. But during its heyday (~7th-12th centuries), the islamic empire was the largest of that time.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged