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How can we determine who is a real moslem ? (Read 18272 times)
Socrates
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #15 - May 28th, 2013 at 6:52pm
 
Wrap him in pig fat and tie him to a spit over a raging fire. If he screams and crackles nicely. He's a Muslim. If there's no crackling he's not............
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Yadda
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #16 - May 28th, 2013 at 7:06pm
 
Socrates wrote on May 28th, 2013 at 6:52pm:

Wrap him in pig fat and tie him to a spit over a raging fire. If he screams and crackles nicely. He's a Muslim. If there's no crackling he's not............




Not helpful, Socrates.






Moslems will just point to such comments, to denigrate all non-moslems who oppose ISLAM.

You are giving them cause, imo.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Soren
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #17 - May 28th, 2013 at 10:27pm
 
Ayaan Hirsi Ali: The Problem of Muslim Leadership

Ayaan Hirsi i Ali writes in The Wall Street Journal:  "Another Islamist terror attack, another round of assurances that it had nothing to do with the religion of peace."

I've seen this before. A Muslim terrorist slays a non-Muslim citizen in the West, and representatives of the Muslim community rush to dissociate themselves and their faith from the horror. After British soldier Lee Rigby was hacked to death last week in Woolwich in south London, Julie Siddiqi, representing the Islamic Society of Britain, quickly stepped before the microphones to attest that all good Muslims were "sickened" by the attack, "just like everyone else."

This happens every time. Muslim men wearing suits and ties, or women wearing stylish headscarves, are sent out to reassure the world that these attacks have no place in real Islam, that they are aberrations and corruptions of the true faith.

But then what to make of Omar Bakri? He too claims to speak for the true faith, though he was unavailable for cameras in England last week because the Islamist group he founded, Al-Muhajiroun, was banned in Britain in 2010. Instead, he talked to the media from Tripoli in northern Lebanon, where he now lives. Michael Adebolajo—the accused Woolwich killer who was seen on a video at the scene of the murder, talking to the camera while displaying his bloody hands and a meat cleaver—was Bakri's student a decade ago, before his group was banned. "A quiet man, very shy, asking lots of questions about Islam," Bakri recalled last week. The teacher was impressed to see in the grisly video how far his shy disciple had come, "standing firm, courageous, brave. Not running away."

Bakri also told the press: "The Prophet said an infidel and his killer will not meet in Hell. That's a beautiful saying. May God reward [Adebolajo] for his actions . . . I don't see it as a crime as far as Islam is concerned."

The question requiring an answer at this moment in history is clear: Which group of leaders really speaks for Islam? The officially approved spokesmen for the "Muslim community"? Or the manic street preachers of political Islam, who indoctrinate, encourage and train the killers—and then bless their bloodshed?

In America, too, the question is pressing. Who speaks for Islam? The Council on American-Islamic Relations, America's largest Muslim civil-liberties advocacy organization? Or one of the many Web-based jihadists who have stepped in to take the place of the late Anwar al-Awlaki, the American-born al Qaeda recruiter

Some refuse even to admit that this is the question on everyone's mind. Amazingly, given the litany of Islamist attacks—from the 9/11 nightmare in America and the London bombings of July 7, 2005, to the slayings at Fort Hood in Texas in 2009, at the Boston Marathon last month and now Woolwich—some continue to deny any link between Islam and terrorism. This week, BBC political editor Nick Robinson had to apologize for saying on the air, as the news in Woolwich broke, that the men who murdered Lee Rigby were "of Muslim appearance."

Memo to the BBC: The killers were shouting "Allahu akbar" as they struck. Yet when complaints rained down on the BBC about Mr. Robinson's word choice, he felt obliged to atone. One can only wonder at people who can be so exquisitely sensitive in protecting Islam's reputation yet so utterly desensitized to a hideous murder explicitly committed in the name of Islam.

In the wake of the Boston Marathon bombing and the Woolwich murder, it was good to hear expressions of horror and sympathy from Islamic spokesmen, but something more is desperately required: genuine recognition of the problem with Islam.

Muslim leaders should ask themselves what exactly their relationship is to a political movement that encourages young men to kill and maim on religious grounds. Think of the Tsarnaev brothers and the way they justified the mayhem they caused in Boston. Ponder carefully the words last week of Michael Adebolajo, his hands splashed with blood: "We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reason we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day."

My friend, the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, was murdered in 2004 for having been insufficiently reverent toward Islam. In the courtroom, the killer looked at Theo's mother and said to her: "I must confess honestly that I do not empathize with you. I do not feel your pain. . . . I cannot empathize with you because you are an unbeliever."

And yet, after nearly a decade of similar rhetoric from Islamists around the world, last week the Guardian newspaper could still run a headline quoting a Muslim Londoner: "These poor idiots have nothing to do with Islam." Really? Nothing?

Of course, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists or sympathetic to terrorists. Equating all Muslims with terrorism is stupid and wrong. But acknowledging that there is a link between Islam and terror is appropriate and necessary.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/49277
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Soren
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #18 - May 28th, 2013 at 10:31pm
 
On both sides of the Atlantic, politicians, academics and the media have shown incredible patience as the drumbeat of Islamist terror attacks continues. When President Obama gave his first statement about the Boston bombings, he didn't mention Islam at all. This week, Prime Minister David Cameron and London Mayor Boris Johnson have repeated the reassuring statements of the Muslim leaders to the effect that Lee Rigby's murder has nothing to do with Islam.

But many ordinary people hear such statements and scratch their heads in bewilderment. A murderer kills a young father while yelling "Allahu akbar" and it's got nothing to do with Islam?

I don't blame Western leaders. They are doing their best to keep the lid on what could become a meltdown of trust between majority populations and Muslim minority communities.

But I do blame Muslim leaders. It is time they came up with more credible talking points. Their communities have a serious problem. Young people, some of whom are not born into the faith, are being fired up by preachers using basic Islamic scripture and mobilized to wage jihad by radical imams who represent themselves as legitimate Muslim clergymen.

I wonder what would happen if Muslim leaders like Julie Siddiqi started a public and persistent campaign to discredit these Islamist advocates of mayhem and murder. Not just uttering the usual laments after another horrifying attack, but making a constant, high-profile effort to show the world that the preachers of hate are illegitimate. After the next zealot has killed the next victim of political Islam, claims about the "religion of peace" would ring truer.

Ms. Hirsi Ali is the author of  "Nomad: My Journey from Islam to America" (Free Press, 2010). She is a fellow at the Belfer Center of Harvard's Kennedy School and a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

What do Muslims and their leaders actually do about these fanatics?
And is anyone actually car about these leaders? They are rolled out every time but nothing actually changes.

Who speaks for Islam? WHo takes responsibility for Islam?




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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #19 - May 28th, 2013 at 10:32pm
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #20 - May 29th, 2013 at 12:14am
 
Soren wrote on May 28th, 2013 at 10:32pm:


What makes you think this bloke is much of an authority on the Q'ran, Soren?   Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Soren
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #21 - May 29th, 2013 at 12:18am
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 12:14am:
Soren wrote on May 28th, 2013 at 10:32pm:


What makes you think this bloke is much of an authority on the Q'ran, Soren?   Roll Eyes



He demonstrated the Koranic basis of the black murderer's rant.

You have never ever demonstrated any Koranic  -or Western philosophical - basis of your defence of Islam - so what makes you an authority on defending Islam?


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Yadda
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #22 - May 29th, 2013 at 1:25am
 
Soren wrote on May 28th, 2013 at 10:31pm:

I wonder what would happen if Muslim leaders like Julie Siddiqi started a public and persistent campaign to discredit these Islamist advocates of mayhem and murder. Not just uttering the usual laments after another horrifying attack, but making a constant, high-profile effort to show the world that the preachers of hate are illegitimate. After the next zealot has killed the next victim of political Islam, claims about the "religion of peace" would ring truer.





Problem is,
that the moslem preachers of hate are NOT, NOT, NOT, 100 x NOT, 'illegitimate'.

What ISLAM is, who a moslem is, and the defined characteristics of a good moslem, all of those things are, and have been, pre-defined by ISLAM's own foundation texts [the Koran and the Hadith].



So, declaring that; 'the preachers of hate are illegitimate' in an effort to morally isolate said 'preachers of hate', will be totally futile, so long as 1/ Mohammed, and 2/ the Koran still have respect, and are held in reverence by the majority of moslems.i




+++



"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260





"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


+++







Is there a solution to this maniacal 'ISLAM' problem - for non-moslems ?


Yes!!!!!!!!




SOLUTION;

Separate ourselves, from all moslems.






Let moslems 'stew' within their own moslem jurisdictions !

After all, moslems all declare [to us] that they want to live under ISLAM.

Let them.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #23 - May 29th, 2013 at 8:04am
 
Soren wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 12:18am:
You have never ever demonstrated any Koranic  -or Western philosophical - basis of your defence of Islam - so what makes you an authority on defending Islam?


Others certainly have - including me - at length.

I wonder why you flatly ignore those, and hold this idiot up (who just spews random verses with no context) as the ultimate authority on islam?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Yadda
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #24 - May 29th, 2013 at 9:47am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 8:04am:
Soren wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 12:18am:
You have never ever demonstrated any Koranic  -or Western philosophical - basis of your defence of Islam - so what makes you an authority on defending Islam?


Others certainly have - including me - at length.

I wonder why you flatly ignore those, and hold this idiot up (who just spews random verses with no context) as the ultimate authority on islam?




ARE MOSLEMS TO BE THE ONLY FAIR ARBITERS OF WHAT THE CONTENTS OF THE KORAN MEAN ?

Because that is what moslems are proposing insisting upon.

i.e.
That the words which we read in the Koran, DO NOT mean what we think that they mean.
But that, those words in the Koran, only mean, what moslems tell us they mean.









polite_gandalf wrote on May 19th, 2013 at 12:36pm:
Hi Yadda, I have a new term I would like to introduce to you. Its called a Logical Fallacy

There are many types of logical fallacies, but in your case, it is attributing what you think you know about islamic texts with how muslims behave in the real world.

To break it down more simply, your argument flow goes something like this:

1. The textual doctrine of islam is the quran and ahadith which I (Yadda) believe promotes violence and intolerance
2. Muslims follow the quran and ahadith
3. Therefore muslims are violent and intolerant in their belief and behaviour


This is a logical fallacy for two reasons:
1. you assume muslims behave according to *YOUR* interpretation of the quran and ahadith, not theirs.
2. You look at nothing else to understand their behaviour but the texts - when what you should be looking at is the actual behaviour of muslims in the real world (overall, not isolated anecdotes here and there).




gandalf,

The Logical Fallacy which i see being presented here, is your suggestion that;


1/ The content of the Koran does NOT promote violence against non-moslems.

2/ Your argument is that i am not interpreting the content/the verses of the Koran honestly/correctly.

e.g.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Koran 9.29

According to gandalf the Koran [which must include Koran 9.29], does not promote undeserved violence against non-moslems.

According to gandalf, i am not interpreting the content of the Koran honestly.

e.g.
To a moslem verses like Koran 9.29, really say something like;

"ISLAM is a peaceful and tolerant religion."


[OK, i do not really believe that!]





IT IS AN ABSURDITY;


But according to gandalf, the Koran does NOT encourage undeserved violence against non-moslems.

That proposition by gandalf [and by many other 'mainstream' moslems], is a barefaced lie, and falsehood.

That is my position.





FURTHER;
These propositions by gandalf [and many other moslems] are a falsehood;

1/ Mainstream ISLAM, AND, the violent content of the Koran,...... HAVE NO LOGICAL CONNECTION.
2/ The violent content of the Koran, AND, the violent behavior of many moslems,...... HAVE NO LOGICAL CONNECTION.
3/ Mainstream ISLAM [i.e. the Koran & hadith 'connection'], AND, the violent behavior of many moslems,...... HAVE NO LOGICAL CONNECTION.



FURTHER;
Many moslems whose behaviour is currently constrained by non-moslem laws, in non-moslem jurisdictions, falsely claim that they, moslems;
1/ Do not wish to impose Sharia [ISLAMIC] law upon non-moslem society and non-moslems.
2/ Do not wish to harm, or subjugate [enslave] non-moslems [under an oppressive law, which favours moslems exclusively].
3/ Are not intolerant of non-moslem society and its values.
4/ Are not intolerant of open truth, open scrutiny, open justice [i.e. one law for all], and individual freedoms.
5/ Are not seeking special laws to be made for the benefit of moslems, so as to accommodate the 'sensibilities' of moslems relating to the practice of their religion.


Those propositions by gandalf [and by many other moslems] are barefaced falsehoods which are being foisted upon naive non-moslems.iDictionary;
ummah = = the whole community of Muslims bound together by ties of religion.

Dictionary;
Islam = = the religion of the Muslims, a monotheistic faith regarded as revealed through Muhammad as the Prophet of Allah.

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

Dictionary;
Koran = = the Islamic sacred book, believed to be the word of God as dictated to Muhammad and written down in Arabic.



In having you to examine those dictionary definitions [immediately above] i want you to understand that the word 'moslem' does not exist, in isolation.

The word 'moslem' is NOT undefined.

It has a meaning, which is defined by ISLAM.

We should understand, that a person who self declares as a moslem, is "a follower of Islam".

And in that understanding we need to acknowledge, with intellectual maturity, just what the implications of that truth really, really, are.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Soren
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #25 - May 29th, 2013 at 11:05am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 8:04am:
Soren wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 12:18am:
You have never ever demonstrated any Koranic  -or Western philosophical - basis of your defence of Islam - so what makes you an authority on defending Islam?


Others certainly have - including me - at length.

I wonder why you flatly ignore those, and hold this idiot up (who just spews random verses with no context) as the ultimate authority on islam?


Ah, context! The context of the verses promoting peace and harmony is that they refer to the Muslim community, to internal peace among Muslim.
For non-Muslims, it's all fight, slay, subjugate, tax.

And event bear this out time and time again.


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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #26 - May 29th, 2013 at 12:27pm
 
Answer the question Soren:

why is this guy such a believable authority on islam, while all the mainstream muslim scholars and leaders (who dispute his claims about violence) can be dismissed?

Have you ever actually stopped and listened to the arguments about why the quran doesn't encourage the things your authority claims it does?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Yadda
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #27 - May 29th, 2013 at 1:12pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 12:27pm:
Answer the question Soren:

why is this guy such a believable authority on islam, while all the mainstream muslim scholars and leaders (who dispute his claims about violence) can be dismissed?



gandalf,

And your argument is, that nobody should be allowed to express an opinion about ISLAM, unless he is a moslem ?
OR,
Your argument is, that nobody can have any legitimate opinion about ISLAM, unless that opinion comes from a moslem ?




David Wood...

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=david+wood+islam

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/







Quote:
Have you ever actually stopped and listened to the arguments about why the quran doesn't encourage the things your authority claims it does?


FROM ISLAM'S PRIMARY THEOLOGICAL TEXT


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85


"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11







+++



Context.


Falah: Jews are 'parasites'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1327483631/8#8
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1327483631/10#10
Quote:

Abu,

As you well know, the Koran is set out by 'topic', and has almost no context presented within its verses.

The Koran is set out in an unstructured format, without any narrative, sequential structure, to present context.




This is unlike most of the books of the OT Bible.

Almost all of the books of the OT Bible have a sequential, narrative, structure.


+++

A FEW VERSES FROM THE THE KORAN, AS AN EXAMPLE OF THE NARRATIVE-LESS 'STRUCTURE' OF THE KORAN......



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #28 - May 29th, 2013 at 1:56pm
 
Yadda wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 1:12pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 12:27pm:
Answer the question Soren:

why is this guy such a believable authority on islam, while all the mainstream muslim scholars and leaders (who dispute his claims about violence) can be dismissed?



gandalf,

And your argument is, that nobody should be allowed to express an opinion about ISLAM, unless he is a moslem ?
OR,
Your argument is, that nobody can have any legitimate opinion about ISLAM, unless that opinion comes from a moslem ?


Dunno about Gandalf but for me, you're entitled to an opinion.  Problem is, you don't listen when it is or has been corrected mate.  You refuse to accept anything from someone who disagrees with your viewpoint.  That makes you a bigot.   Grin Grin Grin
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #29 - May 29th, 2013 at 2:04pm
 
Yadda wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 1:12pm:
FROM ISLAM'S PRIMARY THEOLOGICAL TEXT


There are different interpretations to this text.
Have you ever looked at arguments that say the text can be interpreted the opposite of what you claim? There are many such arguments - from mainstream muslim in fact. Why is your (minority) view more valid than what the majority of muslims say?

You and Soren should put your heads together and come up with a convincing answer to these questions.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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