Australian Politics Forum - How can we determine who is a real moslem ?

polite_gandalf

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #60 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 10:27am

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 9:52am:

Muslims do no not coexist peacefully anywhere, neither with other Muslims nor with the kuffar of any shade or hue.

Your rants are reaching a level of absurdity even I didn't think you capable of Soren. You've excelled yourself.

There are around 5000 muslims in Canberra - can you name a single incident, or any shred of evidence that demonstrates that this community is not "coexisting peacefully" with the wider community? There are obviously hundreds of such communities in the western world - you going to attempt to go through each and every one of them to show me how they are not coexisting peacefully? Or are you going to concede that this was just about the single most stupid thing you have ever said on this forum?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #61 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 11:27am

Lord Herbert wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 1:17pm:

Unfortunately, you're playing games of deception here, gandalf.

I think you know that the Abrogated parts of the Koran were a lot more peaceful than the later additions. It's the later Add-ons that are full of hatred and intolerance towards the Unbeliever.

Baronvonrort wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 3:00pm:

The no compulsion verse has been abrogated by the verse of the sword.

I'll quote you an excerpt of what I quoted to Yadda when he brought up the abrogated nonsense some months back:

Quote:

The principal laid down in this passage – relating to the suppression of the Biblical dispensation by that of the Qur'an – has given rise to an erroneous interpretation by many Muslim theologians. The word ayah ("message") occurring in this context is also used to denote a “verse” of the Qur'an (because every one of these verses contains a message). Taking this restricted meaning of the term ayah, some scholars conclude from the above passage that certain verses the Qur'an have been “abrogated” by God’s command before the revelation of Qur'an was completed. Apart from the fancifulness of this assertion – which calls to mind the image of a human author correcting, on second thought, the proofs of his manuscript deleting one passage and replacing it with another – there does not exist a single reliable Tradition to the effect that the Prophet ever declared a verse of the Qur'an to have been “abrogated”. At the root of the so-called “doctrine of abrogation” may lie the inability of some of the early Commentators to reconcile one Quranic passage with another: a difficulty which was overcome by declaring that one of the verses in question had been “abrogated”. This arbitrary procedure explains also why there is no unanimity whatsoever among the upholders of the “doctrine of abrogation” as to which, and how many, Qur'an-verses have been affected by it, and, furthermore, as to whether this alleged abrogation implies a total elimination of the verse in question from the context of the Qur'an, or only a cancellation of the specific ordinance or statement contains on it. In short, the “doctrine of abrogation” has no basis whatsoever in historical fact, and must be rejected. On the other hand, the apparent difficulty in interpreting the above Qur'anic passage disappears immediately if the term ayah is understood, correctly, as “message”, and if we read this verse in conjunction with the preceding one, which states that the Jews and the Christians refuse to accept any revelation which might supersede that of the Bible; for, if read in this way, the abrogation relates to the earlier divine messages and not to any part of the Qur'an itself..

~Dr. Muhammad Asad.

To which Yadda, in a rare moment of clarity, replied with:

Yadda wrote on Dec 16^th, 2012 at 10:59pm:

gandalf,

Thank you for the quote [that you posted] and for the information which it contains.

What it states, makes a lot of sense to me.

Personally i accept that the concept of Koranic 'abrogation' was always a fabricated 'device', which has been used by moslems [and which, imo, was 'manufactured' precisely to be used by moslems], to serve the interests of moslems - at 'this' moment in time.

And i concede that the clerics of all religions have done this.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #62 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 4:16pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 11:27am:

To which Yadda, in a rare moment of clarity, replied with:

Yadda wrote on Dec 16^th, 2012 at 10:59pm:

gandalf,

Thank you for the quote [that you posted] and for the information which it contains.

What it states, makes a lot of sense to me.

Personally i accept that the concept of Koranic 'abrogation' was always a fabricated 'device', which has been used by moslems [and which, imo, was 'manufactured' precisely to be used by moslems], to serve the interests of moslems - at 'this' moment in time.

And i concede that the clerics of all religions have done this.

Yadda was feeling uncharacteristically tired-and-emotional at the time he penned those words ... and has since apologised profusely and abrogated this post with further opinion and commentary of a much less conciliatory kind.

Yadda is now back in the saddle and charging valiantly towards the Saracen lines with his usual fury and blood-curdling cries.

The enemy urinates in fear as they hear him ululating upon his thundering steed. Cool

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Soren

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #63 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 7:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 10:27am:

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 9:52am:

Muslims do no not coexist peacefully anywhere, neither with other Muslims nor with the kuffar of any shade or hue.

Your rants are reaching a level of absurdity even I didn't think you capable of Soren. You've excelled yourself.

There are around 5000 muslims in Canberra - can you name a single incident, or any shred of evidence that demonstrates that this community is not "coexisting peacefully" with the wider community? There are obviously hundreds of such communities in the western world - you going to attempt to go through each and every one of them to show me how they are not coexisting peacefully? Or are you going to concede that this was just about the single most stupid thing you have ever said on this forum?

Yes, I am sorry, I didn't spell it out.
Take two.

There are no Muslims peacefully coexisting anywhere where the Muslim population has topped about 5-10 percent. Below that, they know they are powerless. Above that, they will not stop until they dominate.
Islamic history, innit.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ? Reply #64 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 7:52pm Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 7:37pm: There are no Muslims peacefully coexisting anywhere where the Muslim population has topped about 5-10 percent. Except for Malaysia and India - off the top of my head.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #65 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 8:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 10:27am:

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 9:52am:

Muslims do no not coexist peacefully anywhere, neither with other Muslims nor with the kuffar of any shade or hue.

Your rants are reaching a level of absurdity even I didn't think you capable of Soren. You've excelled yourself.

There are around 5000 muslims in Canberra - can you name a single incident, or any shred of evidence that demonstrates that this community is not "coexisting peacefully" with the wider community?

There are obviously hundreds of such communities in the western world - you going to attempt to go through each and every one of them to show me how they are not coexisting peacefully? Or are you going to concede that this was just about the single most stupid thing you have ever said on this forum?

Quote:

06 May 2007
Mosque violence Tensions boil over after move to replace imam
Paul Maley
A BITTER factional feud within Canberra's Islamic community has erupted into violence with a leading member being punched repeatedly in the grounds of the mosque at Yarralumla.
Secretary of the ACT Islamic Society Kurt Kennedy said he was set upon shortly after announcing the appointment of a new imam to replace the controversial Mohammed Swaiti.
He was assaulted while waiting on the mosque grounds for a lift home after announcing Mr Swaiti had been dumped and naming the new imam as Yahya Atay.
......"When our secretary Kurt Kennedy announced ... the new imam will deliver the [Friday speech] before prayer, two people jumped up and grabbed Kurt and pushed him around," he told the Canberra Sunday Times.
"They pushed him and wanted to throw him out of the mosque.
"Then the imam [Mr Swaiti] started screaming in the middle of the mosque, 'I am the imam of this mosque! I am the imam who will service you people! I will never step down! No one can force me to step down! I will be here until the day I die!"'

link dead - so google

But,

'ISLAM is peace'.

Honest!!!!

Lucky for us!!!![LOL, ho, ho, ho, it is to laugh], here in Australia, moslems don't have access to RPG's, Ak47's, and explosives for car bomb's!!!

Re-stating,
Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 9:52am:

Muslims do no not coexist peacefully anywhere, neither with other Muslims nor with the kuffar of any shade or hue.

Google;
car bomb kills

Quote:

About 78,000,000 results (0.25 seconds)
Search Results

News for car bomb kills

      Iraq: Car bomb kills at least 14
      InSerbia News ‎- 1 day ago
      Four car bombs in central and northeast Baghdad killed eight people and wounded 34, while two more explosions in the capital killed one ...
      Wave of bombings kills 26 in fresh Iraq attacks
      Yahoo! News‎ - 1 day ago

BBC News - Iraq violence: Baghdad car bombs kill at least 66
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22682400‎
5 days ago – At least 66 people are killed in a series of car bomb attacks in the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, police say, as a spate of violence continues.

PressTV - Car bomb kills 6 injures 30 in Syria's Homs
www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/05/27/.../car-bomb-kills-6-injures-30-in-syria...‎
»Back to Story. Car bomb kills 6 injures 30 in Syria's Homs. The site of a car bombing in Syria (file photo). Mon May 27, 2013 6:9PM. Last Update. Share | Email | ...

Car bombs kill 30 in Iraq | Al Akhbar English
english.al-akhbar.com/content/car-bombs-kill-14-iraq‎
2 days ago – Updated at 7:00pm:A series of bombs in Iraq, including one targeting a provincial governor, killed at least 30 people Thursday and wounded ...

Wave of car bombs kills 66 across Baghdad | Al Akhbar English
english.al-akhbar.com/node/15927‎
5 days ago – A wave of car bombings tore through neighborhoods in Baghdad and its suburbs starting Monday afternoon, leaving at least 66 dead in the ...

Car bomb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_bomb‎
Several people, including innocent bystanders, were killed or wounded. Greene himself was finally killed in a car bomb explosion on October 6, 1977.

List of mass car bombings - Category:Deaths by car bomb - Category:Car bombs
Car bombs kill dozens in Shiite areas of Baghdad - IRAQ - FRANCE ...
www.france24.com/.../20130527-car-bombs-kill-dozens-shiite-areas-bag...‎
5 days ago – Parked cars laden with explosives detonated in mainly Shiite areas of Baghdad on Monday, killing at least 58 people. Police reported blasts in ...

Bombs tear through Iraqi capital, killing over 60 - Yahoo! News
news.yahoo.com/bombs-tear-iraqi-capital-killing-over-60-201029117.ht...‎
5 days ago – Another car bomb exploded in the busy commercial Sadoun Street in downtown Baghdad. It killed five civilians and wounded 14, police said.

Car bomb kills 70 in Iraq - Yahoo!7 News Video
au.news.yahoo.com/video/national/watch/.../car-bomb-kills-70-in-iraq/‎
4 days ago – Bomb blasts have killed more than 70 people in Baghdad.

But,

'Allah Akbar!!! Allah Akbar!!! ISLAM is peace'.

Honest!

I'm a moslem, would i lie to you ???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ? Reply #66 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 8:45pm oh yes, silly me - I totally forgot about all the car bombings in Malaysia
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Lord Herbert

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #67 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 9:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 7:52pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 7:37pm:

There are no Muslims peacefully coexisting anywhere where the Muslim population has topped about 5-10 percent.

Except for Malaysia and India - off the top of my head.

You forgot Google, Ganddafi!. What's in the top of your head is nothing as compared to what Google has in its library.

Yes ... it's those Muslims creating problems again ...

I wonder how Waleeeed Aly explains all these negative stories about Muslims to his wife?

Maybe as Head of the Muslim Household he has banned her from watching the news on TV, or reading the papers, etc...?

(Dare she defy him at the risk of a beating?)

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Yadda

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #68 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 9:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 8:45pm:

oh yes, silly me - I totally forgot about all the car bombings in Malaysia Tongue

ISLAM in Malaysia is not a problem.
The moslems in Malaysia are not a problem.

Do some Googling;

"Malaysia's Prime Minister: LGBTs, liberalism, and pluralism are enemies of Islam"
"Last Malaysian Hindu temple in central Kuala Lumpur condemned, given five days to vacate"
"Malaysian temple condemned, temple staff and devotees given 15 minutes to leave"
"Malaysian government views LGBT community as a 'spreading problem' to be stopped"
"Malaysian deputy prime minister: Islam not compatible with freedom, liberal thought"
"Yet another Malaysian non-Muslim house of worship demolished"
"Malaysian state holding seminar on "threat of Christianity" "
"A message from Malaysia's king: "Muslims need to emulate Prophet Muhammad" "

http://www.jihadwatch.org/malaysia/

Google;
persecution of muslims in malaysia

Almost all of the google results refer to non-moslems being persecuted by moslems.

But there are some hits, if you search for the 'wrong type' of moslems;

Google;
persecution of ahmadiyya muslims, malaysia

+++

Quote:

16 May 2006
Pressure on multi-faith Malaysia
Malaysia is considering its multi-cultural credentials after a crowd of Muslims on Sunday broke up a meeting called to defend the rights of religious minorities.
The country's leaders condemned the disturbances, but the BBC's Jonathan Kent in Kuala Lumpur says non-Muslims feel increasingly beleaguered.
"I'm becoming an alien in Malaysia, in my own country," says Dr Jacob George.
The president of the Consumers Association of Subang and Shah Alam in Selangor State has been helping to organise efforts to stop the local authorities in the ethnic Malay-Muslim dominated city of Shah Alam from demolishing a 107-year-old Hindu temple.
......In living memory it has had only two serious outbreaks of inter-communal violence; in 1946 and 1969. But lately, non-Muslims in Malaysia have expressed fears that the delicate balance between themselves and the majority may be shifting.
......"There's a creeping Islamicisation in our society and this isn't appropriate because we're a multi-religious, multi-racial country."

Google

Quote:

Destruction of Non-Muslim Worship Centers Riles Faith Minorities in Malaysia
By Sean Yoong for AP:
April 01, 2007
PUTRAJAYA, Malaysia - The cavernous pink Putra Mosque with its soaring minaret is one of the most commanding sights and popular tourist photo backdrops in the new city of Putrajaya.
A house of worship for thousands of Muslims in the 8-year-old administrative capital of Malaysia, it is a showcase of the nation's dominant faith — Islam.
But the mosque also highlights the fact that Putrajaya doesn't have a single church or temple — a fact that minority Buddhists, Hindus and Christians see as one example of the second-class treatment other faiths get in this Muslim-majority country.
Religious minorities have long complained about obstacles in getting the government's permission to build places of worship in Malaysia. But their frustrations have grown amid recent accusations by religious rights activists that authorities are destroying non-Muslim shrines, heating up racial bitterness that has simmered for decades beneath a veneer of multicultural harmony.

Google

Quote:

Church demolished in Muslim-run state [Malaysia]
June 19 2007
Kuala Lumpur - Authorities have demolished a church in a Muslim-ruled state in northeast Malaysia, sparking anger among the indigenous people who say they own the property, a religious official said on Tuesday.
Wong Kim Kong, a minister and secretary general of the National Evangelical Christian Fellowship of Malaysia, told AFP the wooden and brick church was torn down on June 8 by local district officials in Kelantan state.
"The authorities said they demolished the church because it was built without their permission," he said.
.....Malaysia's main Islamic opposition party, the Pan-Malaysia Islamic Party (PAS), rules Kelantan state.
Husam Musa, the state public administration and economic planning committee chairperson, said he had not received a report about the incident and could not comment.

Google

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #69 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 10:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 7:52pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 7:37pm:

There are no Muslims peacefully coexisting anywhere where the Muslim population has topped about 5-10 percent.

Except for Malaysia and India - off the top of my head.

Don't be stupid - you are giving Muslims a bad name.

How many Muslim train bombings have been in India in the last 50 years? Come to think of it, India was torn apart by Muslim terrorism.

Malaysia - Terrorism Arrives In Malaysia

[urlhttp://www.forbes.com/2010/01/12/terrorism-malaysia-church-attack-opinions-contributors-ioannis-gatsiounis.html]A recent spate of church attacks forces the nation to examine its government and race relations.[/url]

Where does Islam and Muslims act for peace and the good of all )ie non-Muslims as well as Muslims)??

I can't think of an example. Can you? Where has Islam been a force for good? (Establishing Islamic rule doesn't count - it's no good)

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Brian Ross

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #70 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 11:17pm

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 9:52am:

Brian Ross wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 11:39pm:

Soren wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 9:37pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 8:02pm:

Datalife wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 6:32pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 1:17pm:

It's no use you quoting the peaceful parts of the Koran while it's just as authentic for other Muslims to quote the belligerent parts as their justifications for bombings.

Indeed, it is laughable.

Particularly when one realises that exactly the same condition exists when considering The Bible, DL.

People will always quote what they want from their Holy Book when the circumstance requires it.

I am not aware of Christians blowing up each other in market places, at schools, universities and buses. SO what the 'same conditions' are, only you would know.

Obviously you've forgotten "The Troubles" then, Soren. Of course we had Christians fighting Christians then. They were quite happy to blow each other up, in all sorts of places in and around Londonderry and across the rest of the UK.

Ah, the Troubles. A dispute over a small of a small North Atlantic island.

Yep. So, you denying that Christians were happy blowing each other up, Soren?

And what about the Balkans - Christian Croats, Serbs and Bosnians, massacring each other.

And what about Rwanda - Christian Hutus and Tutsis...

Do you want to talk about Hindus and Buddhists? Some excellent examples of intolerance there.

Quote:

Muslims do no not coexist peacefully anywhere,

Funny, my neighbour is a Muslim and we coexist quite peacefully... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #71 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 11:44pm

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 10:20pm:

How many Muslim train bombings have been in India in the last 50 years? Come to think of it, India was torn apart by Muslim terrorism.

All Indian ethno-religious groups participate in a healthy amount of terrorism - sikhs, hindus, and yes muslims. Then there's all the separtists including Maoists and Assamese.

Only muslim terrorism is picked up by the western media, because it perks our fascination in the Pakistan-India geostrategic dynamic (two nuclear powers). But if we are talking about what India is being "torn apart" by, then separatist and hindu terrorism is a far greater threat (google saffron terror)

In any event, a handful of muslim terrorist incidents (in a sea of non-muslim terrorism), doesn't even remotely change the overwhelmingly peaceful coexistence of the nearly 200 million muslims in India.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #72 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 11:46pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 11:17pm:

?

And what about the Balkans - Christian Croats, Serbs and Bosnians, massacring each other.

And what about Rwanda - Christian Hutus and Tutsis...

Do you want to talk about Hindus and Buddhists? Some excellent examples of intolerance there.

Bosnians - Muslim

Hutus and Tutsies - they were not killing each other over religion. Everyone apart from you knows that.

Hindus and Buddhists - look at the map. How far is India (hindus) from Araby? Burma? Thailand? There are no Hindus or Buddhists invading 'Muslim lands'. It's the other way around. Bwain.

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Soren

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #73 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 11:48pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 11:44pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 10:20pm:

How many Muslim train bombings have been in India in the last 50 years? Come to think of it, India was torn apart by Muslim terrorism.

All Indian ethno-religious groups participate in a healthy amount of terrorism - sikhs, hindus, and yes muslims. Then there's all the separtists including Maoists and Assamese.

Only muslim terrorism is picked up by the western media

Because Muslims are the intruders and invaders everywhere outside Araby. How did Muslims get to India? On tourist visas?

No, they invaded. And they invaded North Africa, the whole of the Middle East outside Araby, Persia, Afghanistan, India. All bloody invasions.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: How can we determine who is a real moslem ?
Reply #74 - Jun 1^st, 2013 at 11:56pm

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 11:46pm:

Bosnians - Muslim

So I guess we're going to blame the Bosnians for just happening to be smack bang in the middle of the (Christian) Croats and Serbs slaughtering each other - and then being targeted themselves? I suppose we can somehow pin the blame on the muslims for getting themselves massacred in Srebrenica - the worst post WWII massacre in Europe?

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 11:46pm:

There are no Hindus or Buddhists invading 'Muslim lands'.

Not keeping up with the news on the ethnic cleansing and systematic massacres of Rohingya by Burmese budhists I see.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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