Australian Politics Forum - Muslims want to silence and intimidate you

freediver

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Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
May 26^th, 2013 at 6:54pm

This issue first arose in this thread:

The threats posed by Islam

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1368872008

In this thread I focused on what I see as the three key threats – freedom of speech, democracy, and genocide. Predictably, Gandalf spent most of the thread employing the most common Muslim technique for deception - diversion.

Some other examples of Muslims employing the diversion technique are listed on the wiki: http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Simple_di...

That is, he spent many pages pretending we were asking him whether Muslims want peace or violence, not whether they support freedom of speech. He even attempted to equate the two in his own convoluted way (ie we should self-censor so Muslims don’t murder us in response, in case we vilify Muslims as a counter-response).

What caught my attention was Gandalf’s claims that he and the majority of Australian Muslims support freedom of speech. At least when it came to Gandalf, this seemed plausible. As far as I can tell, he is the most progressive Muslim I have discussed these issues with. So you can imagine my embarrassment when it emerged that he had tricked me, using the same method I had called Abu out on many times before – changing the definition.

Some other examples of Muslims employing the deceptive technique are listed on the wiki:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Dual_mean...

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Freedom

As it turns out, even though Gandalf “supports” freedom of speech, he thinks it should be illegal to publish the Muhammed cartoons and the youtube video that caused recent controversies.

From the early "Gandalf is pro-freedom" phase of the debate:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 10:45pm:

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 10:29pm:

And your current push to outlaw criticism of Islam.

Its not my push.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 18^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

You ask what mainstream muslims like me are doing to stop the extremists - well look around you - is Australia being terrorised by mad bearded mullahs demanding that freedom and democracy be abolished? No. Mark that down to the "hijacking" (if you like) of Australia's muslim community by the anti-violence, anti-extremism sect of islam. Look at the glaring absense of any mainstream Australian-islamic movement calling for violence and/or intolerance to be imposed on Australians - mark that down to the nature of Australia's muslim community.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 6:30pm:

Would you mind pointing it out to me? I thought it was rather odd that your response completely left out the issues I actually raised in the opening post. Why is that? Here it is again for you:

What about pro-freedom, pro-human rights and pro-democracy? Or is that too much to ask from a Muslim

Let me spell it out to you then. I had just finished explaining, at length, how I (and I believe the majority of muslims) go out and contribute positively to the community, building bridges with the non-muslim community, and presenting the peaceful, tolerant face of islam. To any reasonable person, support for human rights and democracy is implicit, and needs no further clarification. And if you don't think adding that little gem "Or is that too much to ask from a Muslim?" - is insulting - then I suggest you get your head examined.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:38pm:

Personally I don't believe its possible to oppose the values of our society while at the same time being an active and positive contributor to that society. Thats a pretty obvious point I would have thought.

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 9:00pm:

what does the debate about blasphemy and freedom of speech within the Islamic community look like?

It looks identical to the debate outside the islamic community.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 11:30pm:

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2013 at 10:16pm:

Are you saying you support all the values of Australian society?

Of course I do. I wouldn't be here if I didn't.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 20^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2013 at 8:58am:

What about their views regarding blasphemy and freedom of speech? What about democracy?

Like I said, the views of the mainstream islamic community is identical to the mainstream non-muslims Australian community on these issues.

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« Last Edit: May 26^th, 2013 at 7:09pm by freediver »

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #1 - May 26^th, 2013 at 6:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 22^nd, 2013 at 9:19am:

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2013 at 8:57pm:

Does that mean you don't think people should be allowed to mock Muhammed?

No.

Let me be clear: I don't think the cartoons should have been published, but thats not saying that anyone should be forced not to publish them. Key difference.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 20^th, 2013 at 9:14pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2013 at 7:37pm:

Can you elaborate please? Are you saying for example, that most Muslims support the right to mock Muhammed?

I maintain that the vast majority of muslims support the principle of free speech. However there are a couple of problems when relating this to the Muhammad cartoons.

Firstly, it will of course be an emotional issue - given the importance muslims place on their prophet. People generally don't have a good track record of behaving calmly and rationally when emotions are high.

Secondly, there is a fine line between free speech and a deliberate campaign of intimidation and/or vilification. The latter is illegal under Australian law. Thats not to say drawing offensive cartoons are vilifying by nature - they are not.

Gandalf admits the truth about his views on freedom of speech:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

Self censorship is a reasonable course of action?

Absolutely. Its called being responsible gatekeepers of the infomation available. News rooms have to make these calls all the time - deciding whether its responsible to potentially inflame volatile relationships between groups by publishing contentious material.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

Publishing the Muhammed cartoons would not stoke the "anti Muslim flames".

I disagree. The bomb in the turban cartoon made pretty clear insinuations about the entire muslim community.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

We as a society also understand that mocking Islam and mocking Muhammed is absolutely protected by freedom of speech

Its not as clear cut as you claim. As I said, we have laws against vilification, and determining what is acceptable free expression and what is vilification/hate speech can be incredibly hard to decipher.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

There is no grey area.

Oh there absolutely is. You couldn't be more wrong.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

You do not have the right not to be offended.

No, but you absolutely have a right not to be intimidated or vilified.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

freediver wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 9:55am:

Gandalf, could you please clarify whether your support for freedom of speech extends to newspapers publishing the Muhammed cartoons and TV stations airing the youtube video?

I don't oppose critiism per se, but I do oppose deliberately inflammatory expressions specifically designed to vilify a particular group. The jury is still out which category the muhammad cartoons and video falls under.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 3:39pm:

freediver wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 2:33pm:

Are you saying you are not sure whether the cartoons and videos should be made illegal?

Yes. Do they breach the anti-discrimination act - or any other relevant law? That is the question.

Gandalf even attempted to argue that publishing the Muhammed cartoons is already illegal:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 6:19pm:

freediver wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 4:35pm:

Obviously they do not break current law.

who says?

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« Last Edit: May 26^th, 2013 at 7:10pm by freediver »

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #2 - May 26^th, 2013 at 7:02pm

Gandalf also claimed that violence by Muslims is inevitable if we are to keep freedom of speech:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 7:11pm:

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

So violence by Muslims is inevitable if we are to have freedom of speech?

If you call that an appropriate level of freedom of speech, then yeah I guess it does.

Despite admitting that violence by Muslims is inevitable and claiming that self-censorship is the only reasonable way to respond to the persistent threat of violence from Muslims, Gandalf also held the view that when the media actually self censors, it has nothing to do with perceived threats of violence.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 1:04pm:

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

You are yet to offer an alternative explanation.

Of course I did - because the media prefer to be considerate and responsible rather than inciters to violence. Besides I didn't have to show you any alternatives - it doesn't change the fact that your claim is still baseless.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:10am:

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2013 at 10:08pm:

I have already apologised for the confusion and clarified the self censorship in response to the cartoons and the video. If you really want me to look into self censorship regarding the video I will, but you pretty much made the point for me with the cartoon example.

Made what point? That was just you making yet another completely baseless assumption that the non-publishing of the cartoons was due to intimidation and a perceived threat of violence.

In addition to insisting that the western media should self censor to avoid the inevitable violence by Muslims, Gandalf thinks that we (I assume he means Muslims) have a right not to be intimidated.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

You do not have the right not to be offended.

No, but you absolutely have a right not to be intimidated or vilified.

Prior to admitting the inevitability of violence from Muslims, Gandalf mocked me for suggesting it:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 24^th, 2013 at 12:35pm:

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2013 at 11:33am:

Sorry about the confusion. Earlier we were discussing also the cartoon protests. You presented an article where Muslims thanked the Australian media for not publishing the photos. At the time a least 45 people had been killed by Muslims around the world in response to the cartoons.

Ah I see - so it was a case of "thanks for not publishing the photos" *takes sword away from the medias throats*

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23^rd, 2013 at 7:09pm:

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2013 at 6:37pm:

Why else would the Australian media have refrained from reporting fully on what was a very newsworthy event? Muslims kill journalists. That is the pointy end of the campaign. Given the violence in Sydney and outright threats, over something that happened on the other side of the world, the threat of further violence against media outlets or against the Australian public in general was very real. The Australian media was forced to self censor because of the violence and lack of self control of Muslims.

Your ranting FD. Completely irrational tin-foil hat stuff.

Its hysterical - even for you. Utterly pointless discussing this further.

On this issue he also tried to change the topic - insisting that because the media openly reports on terrorism and violent protests by Muslims (eg in Sydney), they do not self censor. I attempted to explain that it was the cartoons and video that the media self censors on, because that is what incites the riots. Obviously if reporting on Muslims rioting caused Muslims to riot, we would be in all sorts of trouble. Of course, this was also before Gandalf admitted that violence from Muslims is inevitable and that the media is obliged to self censor.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 24^th, 2013 at 3:34pm:

The idea that the Australian media is so cowered by the Australian muslim community that they self censor is absurd. The coverage of the Sydney protests looked pretty graphic and undiluted to me.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 24^th, 2013 at 6:33pm:

Lets be truthful here - there is no evidence the Australian media was cowered by the muslims into self censoring - you just made that up.

Gandalf also attempted to argue that Australian Muslims were fundamentally different from overseas Muslims, but quickly abandoned this when I asked him to elaborate:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 24^th, 2013 at 8:29pm:

So in light of this, do you think its fair to distinguish between what extremists around the world do and what Australian muslims do?

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« Last Edit: May 26^th, 2013 at 7:12pm by freediver »

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #3 - May 26^th, 2013 at 7:06pm

Let's blame the Jews.

Gandalf also attempted to change the topic to Jews accusing people of anti-semitism in order to silence their critics. Of course, to do this, he had to ignore every criticism of Islam that had actually been raised and pretend that Muslims only peacefully protest the way other groups do.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

So, to sum up - jews can condemn any criticism of Israel and label it as anti-semitism and it is participating in free speech. Muslims attempting to peacefully condemn offensive phtotos on the other hand is "undermining free speech" in a more "calculated and planned" way. Go figure.

Gandalf also complained that the media did not publish offensive cartoons about Jews:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

OK FD, try and get a picture of a jew with a giant hook nose and locks in his hair, hovering menacingly over a defenseless girl and stealing her money - published in any mainstream publication. Let me know how you go with that one

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

Exactly FD!! Jews can condemn free speech and call it a demonstration of free speech - *JUST LIKE* muslims can condemn free speech (eg cartoons mocking the prophet), and happily call it a demonstration of free speech.

Gandalf also seems to think that if our major political parties don't criticise Israel to the extent he thinks they should, that proves we don't have freedom of speech.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 1:04pm:

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

Yes it does. The Muslims are trying to destroy freedom of speech. The Jews are not. The Jews are some of the biggest defenders of it.

You're obviously not familiar with the Australian Labor Party then.

When was the last time any Australian government has said anything at all against the illegal activities of the Israeli government?

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« Last Edit: May 26^th, 2013 at 7:15pm by freediver »

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40662 Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #4 - May 26^th, 2013 at 7:32pm well done FD. You have shown great patience. muslims are very good at diverting questions
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #5 - May 26^th, 2013 at 7:35pm

freediver wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 7:06pm:

Let's blame the Jews.

Gandalf also attempted to change the topic to Jews accusing people of anti-semitism in order to silence their critics. Of course, to do this, he had to ignore every criticism of Islam that had actually been raised and pretend that Muslims only peacefully protest the way other groups do.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

So, to sum up - jews can condemn any criticism of Israel and label it as anti-semitism and it is participating in free speech. Muslims attempting to peacefully condemn offensive phtotos on the other hand is "undermining free speech" in a more "calculated and planned" way. Go figure.

Gandalf also complained that the media did not publish offensive cartoons about Jews:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

OK FD, try and get a picture of a jew with a giant hook nose and locks in his hair, hovering menacingly over a defenseless girl and stealing her money - published in any mainstream publication. Let me know how you go with that one

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

Exactly FD!! Jews can condemn free speech and call it a demonstration of free speech - *JUST LIKE* muslims can condemn free speech (eg cartoons mocking the prophet), and happily call it a demonstration of free speech.

Gandalf also seems to think that if our major political parties don't criticise Israel to the extent he thinks they should, that proves we don't have freedom of speech.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 1:04pm:

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

Yes it does. The Muslims are trying to destroy freedom of speech. The Jews are not. The Jews are some of the biggest defenders of it.

You're obviously not familiar with the Australian Labor Party then.

When was the last time any Australian government has said anything at all against the illegal activities of the Israeli government?

Muslims are hypocrites when it comes to cartoons, they squeal like a stuck pig and start rioting causing death and destruction if someone draws a Mohammad cartoon yet they are the worst offenders when it comes to cartoons spreading hatred towards the jews.

Can anyone cite a reaction from the jews over cartoons mocking their faith that causes death or destruction?

Go to google and search for Islamic jew cartoons then click on images and see the hypocrisy from muslims over cartoons.

Does Gandalf ever condemn his fellow muslims over the cartoons they make mocking the jews ?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #6 - May 26^th, 2013 at 7:36pm

Cool story bro.

Actually that little montage of the other thread sums up my argument pretty well - the direct quotes that is, not the strawmen you tried to construct from them.

random silly statement:

Quote:

Gandalf thinks that we (I assume he means Muslims) have a right not to be intimidated.

Just to clarify, you're suggesting that freedom of speech includes the right to intimidate? If so, epic ignorance on your part. The only sticking point is the right to not be offended - very different. No one argues for the right to intimidate, I can assure you.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #7 - May 26^th, 2013 at 7:43pm

Baronvonrort wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

Does Gandalf ever condemn his fellow muslims over the cartoons they make mocking the jews ?

Why yes he does.

But wait, wouldn't that be undermining and threatening freedom of speech under FD's system? I'm confused Baron - can you and FD please put your heads together and work out what is the right response for me?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #8 - May 26^th, 2013 at 7:48pm

Quote:

Just to clarify, you're suggesting that freedom of speech includes the right to intimidate?

Being intimidated is a response Gandalf (like taking offence). It makes no sense to attempt to frame rights and freedoms around it. They would be hopelessly vague and subject to interpretation.

Quote:

No one argues for the right to intimidate, I can assure you.

That's because no-one would know what you are talking about. You might find my actions here intimidating, yet I have the right to do it. Others might find Muslims chopping people's heads off intimidating.

Quote:

But wait, wouldn't that be undermining and threatening freedom of speech under FD's system?

If you threatened to chop their heads off if they did not stop it, sure.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #9 - May 26^th, 2013 at 7:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 7:43pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

Does Gandalf ever condemn his fellow muslims over the cartoons they make mocking the jews ?

Why yes he does.

But wait, wouldn't that be undermining and threatening freedom of speech under FD's system? I'm confused Baron - can you and FD please put your heads together and work out what is the right response for me?

Please cite where you have condemned your fellow muslims over cartoons of jews i call bullshit on this.

Its a double standard from hypocrite muslims squealing like a stuck pig along with rioting causing death and destruction over Mohammad cartoons when muslims make offensive cartoons about jews.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #10 - May 26^th, 2013 at 8:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 7:36pm:

Cool story bro.

Actually that little montage of the other thread sums up my argument pretty well - the direct quotes that is, not the strawmen you tried to construct from them.

random silly statement:

Quote:

Gandalf thinks that we (I assume he means Muslims) have a right not to be intimidated.

Just to clarify, you're suggesting that freedom of speech includes the right to intimidate? If so, epic ignorance on your part. The only sticking point is the right to not be offended - very different. No one argues for the right to intimidate, I can assure you.

No Muslim is beheaded on the streets of Amsterdam or London.

When they do, you can talk about intimidation. Until then, you gotta wear it - you are the intimidators, in the name of Allah.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #11 - May 26^th, 2013 at 9:13pm

freediver wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 7:48pm:

Being intimidated is a response Gandalf (like taking offence). It makes no sense to attempt to frame rights and freedoms around it. They would be hopelessly vague and subject to interpretation.

So lets get this straight then - if I marched down the street with a placard that read "behead those who insult the prophet", I couldn't be blamed for intimidating anyone - cause after all, "intimidation is a response" - right? Grin

Also, I can assure you, if someone was deemed to be intimidating towards a particular group by what they express, they would be found liable under the anti-discrimination act.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #12 - May 26^th, 2013 at 9:25pm

Gandalf, you still haven't given a straight answer on the whole freedom of speech vs blasphemy thing. To what extent do you think our freedom of speech should be denied?

Quote:

So lets get this straight then - if I marched down the street with a placard that read "behead those who insult the prophet", I couldn't be blamed for intimidating anyone - cause after all, "intimidation is a response" - right?

I don't believe you would get arrested, even for that. You would get blamed for all sorts of things, but that is not a restriction on your freedom of speech, is it?

Quote:

Also, I can assure you, if someone was deemed to be intimidating towards a particular group by what they express, they would be found liable under the anti-discrimination act.

Like the Muslims who marched through Sydney carrying placards that read "behead those who insult the prophet"?

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40741	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #13 - May 26^th, 2013 at 9:33pm Quote: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Is this all Muslims or just some Muslims, FD?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #14 - May 26^th, 2013 at 9:40pm

freediver wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 9:25pm:

Gandalf, you still haven't given a straight answer on the whole freedom of speech vs blasphemy thing. To what extent do you think our freedom of speech should be denied?

I have given you the straightest answer possible to that - more than once I think.

Freedom of speech should be denied where the law says it should be denied. If you are deemed to be vilifying/intimidating/promoting hate of a particular group - then any such expression should be banned. Of course its a fine line, and there is a massive grey area (a grey area which you laughably deny exists) - but it is important to protect the human rights of minorities. A true democracy doesn't just defend the right of free expression, it also defends the right of people not to be vilified.

freediver wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 9:25pm:

but that is not a restriction on your freedom of speech, is it?

what? How is it not a restriction?

freediver wrote on May 26^th, 2013 at 9:25pm:

Like the Muslims who marched through Sydney carrying placards that read "behead those who insult the prophet"?

Absolutely. I hope anyone who carried such a placard gets the book thrown at them. It is unacceptable - and un-Australian - as any mainstream Australian muslim would tell you.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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