Australian Politics Forum - Muslims want to silence and intimidate you

Lord Herbert

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #120 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 4:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 5:28pm:

The line I would draw is between protecting the right to speech and protecting the right not to be vilified or threatened with physical violence.

You've lumped together three separate issues here.

1. Last year there was a white guy standing on the pavement opposite 10 Dowling Street in London, using a bullhorn to protest about something. He came day after day to do this. With a bullhorn.

The idiots in authority excused this public nuisance by saying he was "exercising his civil rights under Britain's system of liberal democracy".

Utter nonsense. No one has a right to disturb the public peace by using a bullhorn.

Freedom of speech must be expressed within certain socially acceptable parameters. It's why security staff are LEGALLY permitted by law to physically man-handle nuisances out of meetings in Town Halls - no matter what the politics of the speakers.

(I hope you're taking notes, ganddafi).

2.polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 5:28pm:

"and protecting the right not to be vilified "

What utter limp-wristed nonsense.

Our entire political system of Adversarial Democracy rests upon the freedom that allows for public criticism of another's political, cultural, religious, and judicial ideologies and dogmas.

3. polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 5:28pm:

"...or threatened with physical violence.

Correct. Third time lucky.

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #121 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 4:28pm bump
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Lord Herbert

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #122 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 4:31pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2013 at 10:47pm:

Sorry to butt in, but the word "is" is a verb and not a preposition. A preposition denotes something spatial, such as during, below, beneath, before, on, in etc.

Nevertheless, Brian Ross' sentence was grammatically awkward.

Brian's sentence should be a long one at Guantanamo Bay.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #123 - Jun 15^th, 2013 at 8:01pm

Quote:

The line I would draw is between protecting the right to speech and protecting the right not to be vilified or threatened with physical violence.

Yes Gandalf, that is the definition of drawing the line. However, the actual question was where would you draw it?

Quote:

Thats the best I can do without going in to a specific example - like the placard example.

Examples are good, but the placard example does not appear to be an indication of where you would draw the line. You seem to think it should be well on the illegal side.

Quote:

And the borderline there would be (IMO), between saying "offending the prophet should not be allowed" (acceptable) and "kill/physically hurt anyone who offends the prophet" (unacceptable).

What if the proposed punishment was physically hurtful? Are you suggesting it should be illegal for people like Abu for example to say they believe in the death penalty for blasphemy?

Quote:

Gandalf, the only effort I see being undertaken to silence and intimidate people here is that of the bigots. They browbeat any who speak out of turn and disagree with their views.

Brian, if you say something stupid, people will point out that it is stupid. That is how freedom of speech works. It does not mean people have to respect what you say.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #124 - Jun 15^th, 2013 at 11:23pm

freediver wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 8:01pm:

Are you suggesting it should be illegal for people like Abu for example to say they believe in the death penalty for blasphemy?

To say they believe? Of course not. There is a time and a place to argue whether the death penalty should be reinstated, but in the midst of a violent riot is not it. People might very understandably mistake an open ended slogan like "behead those who insult the prophet" as a call for murder. A little different to the admittedly less catchy "bring back the death penalty after due process for those who insult the prophet" - wouldn't you say?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #125 - Jun 16^th, 2013 at 2:34am

Just another croc of sheeet.
If anything, the chemicals were probably supplied by the USA anyway.
Just like Saddam got heaps of Toys from (R) the US to fight the Ayatollah Khomeini before spitting the dummy because the USA wouldn't pay up for him doing the dirty work.

USA can't afford to get serious with Syria like it has been with Iraq/Afghanistan.
So its just having a go at Syria 'offhand'.

Truth is that most Islamic nations can see their chance to unleash hell because the USA has economically collapsed under its own Imperialist (as opposed to Metric) system.

Everyone will think that they intend to attack Israel
...but its a CHRISTIAN sacrifice they want and it seems FRANCE will be the one to face the WRATH OF KHAN.

...only when Islam burns itself out upon France, etc.
Will Israel take full advantage.

silly world really isn't it

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #126 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 1:27pm

Quote:

To say they believe? Of course not. There is a time and a place to argue whether the death penalty should be reinstated, but in the midst of a violent riot is not it.

Are you suggesting the onus should be on people to know whether a demonstration will turn violent before writing a placard that could be later interpretted by people like you as "obviously" inciting the violence?

Can you clarify where the time and place is?

Quote:

People might very understandably mistake an open ended slogan like "behead those who insult the prophet" as a call for murder. A little different to the admittedly less catchy "bring back the death penalty after due process for those who insult the prophet" - wouldn't you say?

Yes it is less catchy, but I don't think something should be illegal because it is catchy and open to misinterpretation. Otherwise you could just as easily argue that the Koran should be illegal.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #127 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 2:15pm

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 1:27pm:

Yes it is less catchy, but I don't think something should be illegal because it is catchy and open to misinterpretation. Otherwise you could just as easily argue that the Koran should be illegal.

Its the context FD, this is common sense stuff, really.

If the protesters had marched down the street peacefully with the beheading placard - and perhaps in an environment where violence and deaths and threats to the author's life had not already occurred, then of course its very different. I would not say that its definitely legal, but its obviously less clear cut.

But as it happened, these protests were violent to start with, and they happened in an environment where people were being killed and threatened over the same issue. In this context, I don't think many people would view the placards as a calm and rational call for a change in the law about capital punishment. Least of all - most critically - any would-be muslim terrorist who might be jolted into action by such a placard.

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 1:27pm:

Otherwise you could just as easily argue that the Koran should be illegal.

If violent protestors rioted down the main street screaming and holding up an extract of the quran that said something like "kill the infidels wherever you find them", then I would expect them to have the book thrown at them as well. On the other hand if peaceful muslim protestors marched holding up an extract of the quran that said "anyone who kills a single person, it will be as if he killed the whole of mankind" or "Let there be no compulsion in religion", then its slightly different no?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #128 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 4:25pm

Quote:

Its the context FD, this is common sense stuff, really.

Yet the only point you failed to address were the ones about context.

Quote:

But as it happened, these protests were violent to start with

So they had already turned violent when the placards were written?

Quote:

If the protesters had marched down the street peacefully with the beheading placard - and perhaps in an environment where violence and deaths and threats to the author's life had not already occurred

Gandalf, the context was Muslims being pissed off about people insulting Muhammed. Are you suggesting that people should only be allowed to voice their opinions on blasphemy when there is less interest and when they don't feel strongly about it? Do you think we should shut down debate on a topic every time a few lunatics on the other side of the world get upset about it?

Quote:

In this context, I don't think many people would view the placards as a calm and rational call for a change in the law about capital punishment.

You are reading too much into the context. Whether it was a calm and rational call depends on whether it was a calm and rational call, not whether everyone else was being calm and rational. It is perfectly reasonable for people to make a calm and rational call in this context.

Quote:

If violent protestors rioted down the main street screaming and holding up an extract of the quran that said something like "kill the infidels wherever you find them", then I would expect them to have the book thrown at them as well.

What if it was in a Mosque, but the context was otherwise identical?

Quote:

On the other hand if peaceful muslim protestors marched holding up an extract of the quran that said "anyone who kills a single person, it will be as if he killed the whole of mankind" or "Let there be no compulsion in religion", then its slightly different no?

Yes, that is a different extract from the Koran.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #129 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 4:58pm

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 4:25pm:

Yet the only point you failed to address were the ones about context.

Then you haven't been paying attention to my argument.

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 4:25pm:

Gandalf, the context was Muslims being pissed off about people insulting Muhammed. Are you suggesting that people should only be allowed to voice their opinions on blasphemy when there is less interest and when they don't feel strongly about it? Do you think we should shut down debate on a topic every time a few lunatics on the other side of the world get upset about it?

But it wasn't just a few lunatics on the other side of the world - it was a few lunatics right here - at the very same rally that the placards were used in fact. Again, violent placards may be legally passable in the hands of peaceful protestors, but when they are in the hands of protestors acting violently and threateningly, then the placards themselves become an instrument of violence IMO.

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 4:25pm:

You are reading too much into the context.

not enough context, too much context - make up your mind FD.

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 4:25pm:

Whether it was a calm and rational call depends on whether it was a calm and rational call, not whether everyone else was being calm and rational. It is perfectly reasonable for people to make a calm and rational call in this context.

Don't be absurd - the question of whether you are behaving calmly and rationally or not has everything to do with context. Calling for killings in the context of a violent rally is not being calm and rational. Calling for killings in the context of a policy debate on capital punishment is calm and rational.

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 4:25pm:

What if it was in a Mosque, but the context was otherwise identical?

Anyone who encourages people to go out and be violent and/or kill people should be punished by the state.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #130 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 5:13pm

Quote:

But it wasn't just a few lunatics on the other side of the world - it was a few lunatics right here - at the very same rally that the placards were used in fact.

You keep ignoring this point and I am suspecting this is deliberate. The violence did not occur until after the placards were created and waived around. Are you seriously arguing that something can be perfectly legal, but then become illegal after the fact based on the actions of others?

Quote:

Again, violent placards may be legally passable in the hands of peaceful protestors, but when they are in the hands of protestors acting violently and threateningly, then the placards themselves become an instrument of violence IMO.

Do you mean it should be illegal to hold such a placard while you are beating someone?

Quote:

not enough context, too much context - make up your mind FD.

Gandalf, context is supposed to clarify the intended meaning of something, not change it based on events a person may not even be aware of or that may not happen until after it the statement has been written.

Quote:

Don't be absurd - the question of whether you are behaving calmly and rationally or not has everything to do with context.

Correct, whether YOU are behaving calmly and rationally, not whether people on the other side of the world are, or the behaviour of people around you afterwards.

Quote:

Calling for killings in the context of a violent rally is not being calm and rational.

Are you deliberately ignoring the point I have been making regarding the timing? Do you believe these Muslims waited until the protests turned violent and then created the placards?

Quote:

Anyone who encourages people to go out and be violent and/or kill people should be punished by the state

So publishing a Koran containing similar statements in the context of violence before, during or after the publication should be illegal?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #131 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 7:05pm

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 5:13pm:

The violence did not occur until after the placards were created and waived around.

I'm not talking about the creation of the placards, I'm talking about the use of the placards - obviously. Roll Eyes

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 5:13pm:

Correct, whether YOU are behaving calmly and rationally, not whether people on the other side of the world are, or the behaviour of people around you afterwards.

This is ridiculous. I don't know if you're deliberately trying to sound something pretty simple sound complicated when its not.

If you take a beheading placard to a violent protest, wave it around, associate yourself and the placard with people acting violently, then by default you are participating in violence. It doesn't matter if you yourself are being physically violent, the placard itself in the context of a violent protest becomes an instrument of violence - even if the carrier is not himself being physically violent.

I suspect this might require some lateral thinking on your part to understand this.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48830 At my desk.	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #132 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 7:55pm So the placards should have been legal up until the protest became violent? Was the violence by the Muslims planned or orchestrated?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #133 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 9:00pm

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 7:55pm:

So the placards should have been legal up until the protest became violent?

not entirely sure what you mean. I can only repeat that its the context and the intention of the placards. Someone could be using them as satire, for example - such as making a point about irrational extremists. Or a journalist simply using them to demonstrate what went on during a rally in which they were used. In those cases its obviously not illegal.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48830 At my desk.	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #134 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 9:03pm What about taking it to a rally that you had no idea was going to turn violent?
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