Australian Politics Forum - Muslims want to silence and intimidate you

polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #150 - Jun 21^st, 2013 at 12:17pm

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2013 at 8:34am:

Gandalf, you are going round in circles. I already responded to this. It is vague to the point of absurdity.

Perhaps thats because your question was vague to the point of absurdity. It will never work unless you concentrate on something specific - like the sydney protests, which I have already given you my "line".

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2013 at 8:34am:

No Gandalf. You really should stick to what I actually say. It has to be an actual threat, not an implied one.

Please define what is an actual threat as opposed to an implied one - particularly in the context of a violent riot.

Do you think the person who made the video, or anyone who published offensive prophet cartoons would feel at all threatened by a placard carried by muslims acting violently that read "behead those who insult the prophet"? Or what about anyone who intended to express their right to insult the prophet - do you think its fair that their (democratically granted) expressions should be met with violent calls to have them killed? And if so, do you think its fair to fob their concerns and anxieties off by telling them "oh don't worry, they are just making a calm rational call for a change to the law"?

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2013 at 8:34am:

You are judging the intention of the person who created the placard based on events that happened after they created it and over which they had no control.

I've already explained this: it has nothing to do with the act of creating the placard. As I explained earlier, it could well be used for satirical purposes, or even to demonstrate what *NOT* to do at a protest ("here's a placard that you should not carry to a public rally"). In those contexts, I obviously don't have any problem with the placard.

Its all about the situation in which it is used. And when you take that placard to a public rally to protest against insulting the prophet- then such a placard is an overt declaration that you want those who insulted the prophet to be killed. It is inherently violent - even if no physical violence is used. It is inciteful and it is intimidating to any would-be prophet insulters. That sort of "expression" has no place in Australia, and I absolutely support it being made illegal - and I don't think many Australians would disagree with me.

No doubt you will come back with "oh but you don't know that it wasn't just a call for a change to law - in which case it shouldn't be illegal" - to which I reply, the default position for violent protestors who call for the killing of the people they are protesting (violently) against, should be that the threats they make are inciteful, intimidating to the people they are directed against, and therefore intolerable.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #151 - Jun 21^st, 2013 at 5:31pm

Quote:

Please define what is an actual threat as opposed to an implied one - particularly in the context of a violent riot.

"I am going to kill you" - an actual threat.

"I am going to kill that guy who made the Muhammed video" - an actual threat.

"Behead those who insult the prophet" - an implied threat.

Obviously there becomes a grey area when you argue that someone meant something different to what they actually said, but this cannot be assumed.

I am not sure what difference the context of a violent makes really. If they chanted "behead those who insult Muhammed" while setting fire to cars, that would not be so different to chanting the same while shaking their fists angrily. Obviously setting fire to cars is a crime, but that's as far as it goes.

Quote:

Do you think the person who made the video, or anyone who published offensive prophet cartoons would feel at all threatened by a placard carried by muslims acting violently that read "behead those who insult the prophet"?

Yes.

Quote:

Or what about anyone who intended to express their right to insult the prophet - do you think its fair that their (democratically granted) expressions should be met with violent calls to have them killed? And if so, do you think its fair to fob their concerns and anxieties off by telling them "oh don't worry, they are just making a calm rational call for a change to the law"?

Can you explain why you qualified it with "democratically granted"? Do you see nothing fundamental in these rights?

I don't think it is fair, but freedom of speech includes the right to discuss and promote the death penalty. It includes the right to argue against freedom of speech. If someone does this in the midst of a violent riot, the people who act violently should be arrested for any crimes they commit. This is true regardless of whether people also promote the death penalty at the same time.

Quote:

I've already explained this: it has nothing to do with the act of creating the placard.

It has to. The text is written when the placard is created. The intended meaning of the text does not change later on.

Quote:

Its all about the situation in which it is used. And when you take that placard to a public rally to protest against insulting the prophet- then such a placard is an overt declaration that you want those who insulted the prophet to be killed. It is inherently violent - even if no physical violence is used. It is inciteful and it is intimidating to any would-be prophet insulters. That sort of "expression" has no place in Australia, and I absolutely support it being made illegal - and I don't think many Australians would disagree with me.

This is legitimate political commentary, as is any other call for the death penalty. If soemone called for death to rapists at an anti rape rally that was held in response to a highly publicised rape, that would also be protected political expression. I think you will find that most Australians do disagree with you, which is why no-one batted an eyelid when the lady who did this was let off scott free.

Quote:

No doubt you will come back with "oh but you don't know that it wasn't just a call for a change to law - in which case it shouldn't be illegal" - to which I reply, the default position for violent protestors who call for the killing of the people they are protesting (violently) against, should be that the threats they make are inciteful, intimidating to the people they are directed against, and therefore intolerable.

If the protestors are violent, they should be charged under the appropriate law for whatever they did in that violence, not for what they said while being violent. It is the violence that is intolerable, not the speech.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #152 - Jun 21^st, 2013 at 6:43pm just clarify one thing for me FD: can you envisage any scenario whereby an expression using only words should be outlawed?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48830 At my desk.	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #153 - Jun 22^nd, 2013 at 9:41am Sure. A textbook legal example is calling fire in a crowded theatre.
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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21566 A cat with a view	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #154 - Jun 22^nd, 2013 at 9:49am freediver wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2013 at 9:41am: Sure. A textbook legal example is calling fire in a crowded theatre. A textbook legal example is calling fire in a crowded theatre. A textbook legal example is calling out; Fire! in a crowded theatre - when there is no fire.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #155 - Jun 22^nd, 2013 at 1:55pm freediver wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2013 at 9:41am: Sure. A textbook legal example is calling fire in a crowded theatre. correct. Anything else? Like issuing a direct threat to kill someone, or calling on others to have them killed?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48830 At my desk.	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #156 - Jun 22^nd, 2013 at 11:22pm A direct and serious threat to kill someone should be illegal.
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moses

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #157 - Jun 24^th, 2013 at 9:02pm

From the **evolution of islam thread**

Quote:

Soren wrote: Quote:

So all the rioting over the accidental maltreatment of the printed paper form of the ushaf is mere commodity fetishim, the idolatrous worshipping of a mere paper object, industrially produced and bought and sold?

gandalf wrote: Quote:

Maybe you should ask the people who were rioting over that. It certainly wasn't me.

Most likely though its resentment over the perceived lack of respect for islam. A bit like the horror some Americans show for the burning of the American flag is not exactly fetishism over a coloured piece of cloth.

The above answer is proof of the validity of the statement: **muslims want to silence and intimidate you**

Do something muslims don't like, they think they have the right to riot and kill you.

Before we get the usual apology *not all muslims do it *, can somebody tell me when these so called non participating muslims, and their apologists, are going to stand up and be counted and do something about the filth and perversion in islam / qur'an / commands from allah / teachings of muhammad, which are the root cause of the riots and murders.

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Yadda

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #158 - Jun 24^th, 2013 at 9:35pm

moses wrote on Jun 24^th, 2013 at 9:02pm:

From the **evolution of islam thread**

Quote:

Soren wrote: Quote:

So all the rioting over the accidental maltreatment of the printed paper form of the ushaf is mere commodity fetishim, the idolatrous worshipping of a mere paper object, industrially produced and bought and sold?

gandalf wrote: Quote:

Maybe you should ask the people who were rioting over that. It certainly wasn't me.

Most likely though its resentment over the perceived lack of respect for islam. A bit like the horror some Americans show for the burning of the American flag is not exactly fetishism over a coloured piece of cloth.

The above answer is proof of the validity of the statement: **muslims want to silence and intimidate you**

Do something muslims don't like, they think they have the right to riot and kill you.

Before we get the usual apology *not all muslims do it *,

can somebody tell me when these so called non participating muslims, and their apologists, are going to stand up and be counted and do something about the filth and perversion in islam / qur'an / commands from allah / teachings of muhammad, which are the root cause of the riots and murders.

Yes [.....i can tell you].

NEVER, EVER!

+++

A 'non participating' moslem - is an aberration.

In fact, a 'non participating' moslem - is a imaginary 'creature'.

How do i know this ???

Hmmmm......

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

+++

A moslem, is a person who chooses to embrace a philosophy [ISLAM], which teaches moslems that it is 'lawful' for moslems, to kill those, who do not believe, as they believe.

Who is a moslem ?

"Allah is my god, and Mohammed is his prophet."

[i.e. the Allah, and the Mohammed, as described in the Koran and Hadith]

By making such a declaration;

"I am a moslem."

;

.....every moslem, is choosing to directly associate themselves with the 'religious' violence which ISLAM justifies, legitimises, promotes and encourages [as a philosophy].

And every moslem is thereby associating >> themselves << with those violent criminal acts which are purposefully being done, 'in the name of Allah'.

As far as i can tell, there are only two very distinct and different kinds of moslem, .......the (1) deceitful moslem, and, the (2) deceitful moslem.

And, there are no 'moderate' moslems.

'Being' a moslem, is like being pregnant.

You either are, or, you are NOT.

AGAIN.....

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

All moslems, are people who are enthralled, .......by ISLAM.

And this, is the principle doctrine that ISLAM promotes in the world;

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

Got it yet ?

ISLAM = = deception, lawlessness and violence against those who are not moslems.

ISLAM - is a religion a vicious supremacist political philosophy, which promotes the use of deception, blatant lying, intimidation and extreme violence to further its aims.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #159 - Jun 25^th, 2013 at 11:22pm

moses wrote on Jun 24^th, 2013 at 9:02pm:

can somebody tell me when these so called non participating muslims, and their apologists, are going to stand up and be counted and do something about the filth and perversion in islam / qur'an / commands from allah / teachings of muhammad, which are the root cause of the riots and murders.

There were 24 of them at a demo in Toronto recently. (And that's 24 more you can see in Sydney or Melbourne.)

Progressive Muslims group launched in Toronto to reclaim ‘hijacked’ faith

Progressive Muslims are denouncing the violent extremism wrongly associated with Islam. But there remains a reticence to speak out amongst some Muslims.

BERNARD WEIL / TORONTO STAR

Tahir Gora shouts into a microphone, cuing a response from the sparse group of supporters gathered with him at the steps of Queen’s Park.
“Terrorism,” he yells.
“Unacceptable!” they reply.
Their voices carry across the grassy Legislature grounds that are, with the exception of a few bike cops and pedestrians, deserted. A stack of unused signs, their slogans reading “Hate is not my religion” and “Love it or leave my Canada,” lean up against a nearby pole.
Mighty but small, it was not quite the turnout the newly formed Progressive Muslims Institute Canada had in mind for their first rally, held last week. As one of the organizers mused with a chuckle, there were more white faces than brown in the crowd of roughly two dozen.

But when the goal is as big as reclaiming a faith many Muslims feel has been hijacked by terrorism, you’ve got to start somewhere.
“We thought, enough is enough,” said Gora, the institute’s director and a Pakistani writer and social activist.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/06/17/progressive_muslims_group_launched_in_toronto_to_reclaim_hijacked_faith.html

Hear that Gandalf, you've got to start somewhere.

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Yadda

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #160 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 10:52am

Soren wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 11:22pm:

moses wrote on Jun 24^th, 2013 at 9:02pm:

can somebody tell me when these so called non participating muslims, and their apologists, are going to stand up and be counted and do something about the filth and perversion in islam / qur'an / commands from allah / teachings of muhammad, which are the root cause of the riots and murders.

There were 24 of them at a demo in Toronto recently. (And that's 24 more you can see in Sydney or Melbourne.)

Progressive Muslims group launched in Toronto to reclaim ‘hijacked’ faith

Progressive Muslims are denouncing the violent extremism wrongly associated with Islam. But there remains a reticence to speak out amongst some Muslims.

BERNARD WEIL / TORONTO STAR

Tahir Gora shouts into a microphone, cuing a response from the sparse group of supporters gathered with him at the steps of Queen’s Park.
“Terrorism,” he yells.
“Unacceptable!” they reply.
Their voices carry across the grassy Legislature grounds that are, with the exception of a few bike cops and pedestrians, deserted. A stack of unused signs, their slogans reading “Hate is not my religion” and “Love it or leave my Canada,” lean up against a nearby pole.
Mighty but small, it was not quite the turnout the newly formed Progressive Muslims Institute Canada had in mind for their first rally, held last week. As one of the organizers mused with a chuckle, there were more white faces than brown in the crowd of roughly two dozen.

But when the goal is as big as reclaiming a faith many Muslims feel has been hijacked by terrorism, you’ve got to start somewhere.
“We thought, enough is enough,” said Gora, the institute’s director and a Pakistani writer and social activist.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/06/17/progressive_muslims_group_launched_in_toronto_to_reclaim_hijacked_faith.html

Hear that Gandalf, you've got to start somewhere.

But, gandalf is a real moslem.

Not a backslider.

Not an apostate.

Not a hypocrite [.....like those apostates! spit!, spit!, in Toronto] ! Tongue

'Hypocrites', are NOT 'moslems'.

Isn't that correct, gandalf ?i

'Hypocrites', are NOT moslems [Allah sez].

"Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-"
Koran 4.88, 89

Only those who obey Allah and the messenger, are true moslems [Allah sez].

Isn't that correct, gandalf ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #161 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 10:58am

Yadda wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

'Hypocrites', are NOT moslems [Allah sez].

"Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-"
Koran 4.88, 89

Only those who obey Allah and the messenger, are true moslems [Allah sez].

Isn't that correct, gandalf ?

"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and make not vain your deeds!
Those who reject Allah, and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, then die rejecting Allah,- Allah will not forgive them.
Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you, and will never put you in loss for your (good) deeds."
Koran 47:33-35

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #162 - Oct 21^st, 2013 at 7:00pm

This may sound hard to believe, but I never got a straight answer from Gandalf on this:

freediver wrote on Oct 12^th, 2013 at 9:50am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11^th, 2013 at 10:33pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2013 at 7:07pm:

That's great. It means there is no need for you to attempt to forbid people from making the accusation. Right?

Perhaps you can refer me to where I have attempted any such thing.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10^th, 2013 at 10:32am:

Freedom to criticise must be protected, but protecting people's right to not be vilified is just as important. Especially when it is based on outright lies. A good example here is the common smear on muslims that they love pedophilia - based on the claim that the Prophet was a pedophile. This has been thoroughly debunked in another thread - but don't expect the pedophile smear to stop any time soon. In a rather more spectacular example, we had Soren declaring that the recent Swedish riots were caused by a muslim being shot by police after he threatened to "honour kill" his family with the kitchen knife. The victim was not even muslim.

Some other interesting threads on the issue:

Is Islam against free speech?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1217813944

blasphemy

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1219295195

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #163 - Oct 21^st, 2013 at 10:28pm

Thats apparently me "forbidding" people from making the accusation that Muhammad is a pedophile. Tongue

What does Gandalf actually say? He says that freedom to criticise should be protected, but so should the rights of muslims not to be vilified based on lies.

Question: what is Gandalf "forbidding"?

Vilification is more than a mere criticism or accusation IMO, it is much much more. It is a concerted campaign of harassment and intimidation, done with the specific aim of inciting hatred towards a person or group. Everyone, not just muslims, needs to be protected from such attacks, I make no apology for that. And Australian law agrees with me.

So I ask again, what am I actually "forbidding"? Certainly not the accusation that Muhammad is a pedophile, you just made that up.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Datalife

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #164 - Oct 21^st, 2013 at 10:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 10:28pm:

Thats apparently me "forbidding" people from making the accusation that Muhammad is a pedophile. Tongue

What does Gandalf actually say? He says that freedom to criticise should be protected, but so should the rights of muslims not to be vilified based on lies.

Question: what is Gandalf "forbidding"?

Vilification is more than a mere criticism or accusation IMO, it is much much more. It is a concerted campaign of harassment and intimidation, done with the specific aim of inciting hatred towards a person or group. Everyone, not just muslims, needs to be protected from such attacks, I make no apology for that. And Australian law agrees with me.

So I ask again, what am I actually "forbidding"? Certainly not the accusation that Muhammad is a pedophile, you just made that up.

You should have done what I advised you to do long ago at the start of this thread. Just say yeah, big Mos bad, but different standards back then.

But your continual pedantic, semantic, dancing on the head of a pin explanations, is, like it or not, making you look a lot like, in the modern age, (well at least in this country) that at the very best interpretation you are apologising for kiddy fiddling.

I can see you are protecting your prophet from what you consider to be an insult, which is fair enough but also very silly such a thing did not exist back then but then you are here, trying to explain it away. Which frankly you cannot do, in the modern sense he did stuff that is now considered by some, in some countries, this being one of them, as pretty frigging bad behaviour.

But in the day it was not bad behaviour, so not an insult.

As I said before, and in this post, should have just said different times, different standards.

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