Australian Politics Forum - Muslims want to silence and intimidate you

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #165 - Oct 21^st, 2013 at 11:02pm Thats nice data, but thats got nothing to do with whether or not I called for a ban on accusing the prophet of being a pedophile.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Datalife

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #166 - Oct 21^st, 2013 at 11:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 11:02pm:

Thats nice data, but thats got nothing to do with whether or not I called for a ban on accusing the prophet of being a pedophile.

I didn't even know you had. My post was to try and give you an inkling of the direction that other people are taking, and your own defence and the incompatibility between the two when a reasonable and logical explanation which could be accepted by any reasonable and logical person, that it was a different time, different standards, and big Mo by those conditions at the time did nothing wrong.

It was some good advice, but if I infer correctly from your post that you seek to ban and censor I leave you to it. I don't like censorship at the best of times, and censoring or banning people because your sensibilities are offended because your god or prophet is being insulted well I lose interest totally.

Up to here, frankly with Muslims taking offence and attempting to censor others.

As an atheist maybe I don't get it, but clowns of all faiths protecting sky fairys by censoring or declaring fatwahs, beheadings, bombings, and all the usual rubbish are nothing more than intolerant. And dangerously so.

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« Last Edit: Oct 21^st, 2013 at 11:21pm by Datalife »

"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #167 - Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 5:45am

Datalife wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 11:15pm:

I didn't even know you had.

I hadn't, but its probably worth checking the topic of a thread before contributing to it.

Datalife wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 11:15pm:

My post was to try and give you an inkling of the direction that other people are taking

The "direction" that FD is taking, if you bothered to see what I was responding to, is the rather offensive claim that I am attempting to "silence and intimidate" him and anyone else who seeks to criticise islam and/or The Prophet. I am not. I am against the intimidation and harassment of muslims through hate speech and vilification, and believe they should be protected from it. Everyone should be protected from vilification, muslim and non-muslim. Thats why I supported punishing those muslims who were waving beheading placards at the Sydney rally last year - just as much as I believe people who incite violence and/or intimidation against muslims should be punished. I believe that position is quite reasonable and Australian law agrees with me. FD has taken his absurd "free speech no matter what" position to such ridiculous lengths that he claims to support the right of muslims to incite violence against non-muslims (beheading placards).

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« Last Edit: Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 8:51am by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #168 - Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 12:33pm DL doesn't like reasonableness. He likes being judgemental. he also lies, accusing people of things he admits he has no proof of! He follows the path of hate.
Back to top	"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013. "we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions." Freediver, 2007. IP Logged

Datalife

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #169 - Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 2:02pm

|dev|null wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 12:33pm:

DL doesn't like reasonableness. He likes being judgemental. he also lies, accusing people of things he admits he has no proof of! He follows the path of hate. Cheesy

The idiot gene is strong in your family. Maybe you can post this lie? But here is a hint for the clueless, holding an opinion that Brian is an apologist for the indefensible is not a lie.

Pretending to be an academic then suddenly remembering you are not, in fact (not opinion, see the difference?) an academic is a lie.

Though I reckon the distinction will continue to elude you, being such a slow learner and all. One would think a fellow who brags of having an IQ of 178 might be a bit brighter than you present as.

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"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007

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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #170 - Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 3:20pm Claiming he "defended the indefensible" is a lie though, DL and you even admitted you had no evidence that he did that, hence betraying your own lie! What a wally!
Back to top	"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013. "we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions." Freediver, 2007. IP Logged

wally1

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #171 - Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 4:13pm

Datalife wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 11:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 11:02pm:

Thats nice data, but thats got nothing to do with whether or not I called for a ban on accusing the prophet of being a pedophile.

I didn't even know you had. My post was to try and give you an inkling of the direction that other people are taking, and your own defence and the incompatibility between the two when a reasonable and logical explanation which could be accepted by any reasonable and logical person, that it was a different time, different standards, and big Mo by those conditions at the time did nothing wrong.

It was some good advice, but if I infer correctly from your post that you seek to ban and censor I leave you to it. I don't like censorship at the best of times, and censoring or banning people because your sensibilities are offended because your god or prophet is being insulted well I lose interest totally.

Up to here, frankly with Muslims taking offence and attempting to censor others.

As an atheist maybe I don't get it, but clowns of all faiths protecting sky fairys by censoring or declaring fatwahs, beheadings, bombings, and all the usual rubbish are nothing more than intolerant. And dangerously so.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #172 - Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 6:46pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 10:28pm:

Thats apparently me "forbidding" people from making the accusation that Muhammad is a pedophile. Tongue

What does Gandalf actually say? He says that freedom to criticise should be protected, but so should the rights of muslims not to be vilified based on lies.

Question: what is Gandalf "forbidding"?

Vilification is more than a mere criticism or accusation IMO, it is much much more. It is a concerted campaign of harassment and intimidation, done with the specific aim of inciting hatred towards a person or group. Everyone, not just muslims, needs to be protected from such attacks, I make no apology for that. And Australian law agrees with me.

So I ask again, what am I actually "forbidding"? Certainly not the accusation that Muhammad is a pedophile, you just made that up.

I recall asking you that very question - or rather, what are you calling to be banned.

Should people be allowed to accuse Muhammed of pedophilia? Does the answer depend on whether you deem it to be part of some campaign, or merely one person voicing their opinion?

Quote:

The "direction" that FD is taking, if you bothered to see what I was responding to, is the rather offensive claim that I am attempting to "silence and intimidate" him and anyone else who seeks to criticise islam and/or The Prophet.

Oh dear, we mustn't offend Muslims by pointing out what they said, eh?

Quote:

Freedom to criticise must be protected, but protecting people's right to not be vilified is just as important. Especially when it is based on outright lies. A good example here is the common smear on muslims that they love pedophilia - based on the claim that the Prophet was a pedophile. This has been thoroughly debunked in another thread - but don't expect the pedophile smear to stop any time soon.

Quote:

Thats why I supported punishing those muslims who were waving beheading placards at the Sydney rally last year - just as much as I believe people who incite violence and/or intimidation against muslims should be punished. I believe that position is quite reasonable and Australian law agrees with me.

So what punishment did they get for the beheading posters?

Quote:

One would think a fellow who brags of having an IQ of 178 might be a bit brighter than you present as.

Who's this? HB?

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« Last Edit: Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 6:52pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Datalife

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #173 - Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 6:58pm

|dev|null wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 3:20pm:

Claiming he "defended the indefensible" is a lie though, DL and you even admitted you had no evidence that he did that, hence betraying your own lie! What a wally! Cheesy

Maybe you can post where I did that? Of course you will not. Funnily enough it is you that is lying. Must be related to that stupid gene you inherited along with your brother.

You went on an idiot tangent and demanded I provide evidence he condoned beheadings. I said he was not stupid enough to condone in writing beheadings. He is still a defender of the indefensible.

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"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #174 - Nov 4^th, 2013 at 8:06pm

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 6:46pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 10:28pm:

Thats apparently me "forbidding" people from making the accusation that Muhammad is a pedophile. Tongue

What does Gandalf actually say? He says that freedom to criticise should be protected, but so should the rights of muslims not to be vilified based on lies.

Question: what is Gandalf "forbidding"?

Vilification is more than a mere criticism or accusation IMO, it is much much more. It is a concerted campaign of harassment and intimidation, done with the specific aim of inciting hatred towards a person or group. Everyone, not just muslims, needs to be protected from such attacks, I make no apology for that. And Australian law agrees with me.

So I ask again, what am I actually "forbidding"? Certainly not the accusation that Muhammad is a pedophile, you just made that up.

I recall asking you that very question - or rather, what are you calling to be banned.

Should people be allowed to accuse Muhammed of pedophilia? Does the answer depend on whether you deem it to be part of some campaign, or merely one person voicing their opinion?

Quote:

The "direction" that FD is taking, if you bothered to see what I was responding to, is the rather offensive claim that I am attempting to "silence and intimidate" him and anyone else who seeks to criticise islam and/or The Prophet.

Oh dear, we mustn't offend Muslims by pointing out what they said, eh?

Quote:

Freedom to criticise must be protected, but protecting people's right to not be vilified is just as important. Especially when it is based on outright lies. A good example here is the common smear on muslims that they love pedophilia - based on the claim that the Prophet was a pedophile. This has been thoroughly debunked in another thread - but don't expect the pedophile smear to stop any time soon.

Quote:

Thats why I supported punishing those muslims who were waving beheading placards at the Sydney rally last year - just as much as I believe people who incite violence and/or intimidation against muslims should be punished. I believe that position is quite reasonable and Australian law agrees with me.

So what punishment did they get for the beheading posters?

Quote:

One would think a fellow who brags of having an IQ of 178 might be a bit brighter than you present as.

Who's this? HB?

Bump for Gandalf.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #175 - Nov 4^th, 2013 at 9:45pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 4^th, 2013 at 9:09pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2013 at 8:07pm:

Here you go Gandalf:

Here's what I said:

Quote:

Vilification is more than a mere criticism or accusation IMO, it is much much more. It is a concerted campaign of harassment and intimidation, done with the specific aim of inciting hatred towards a person or group. Everyone, not just muslims, needs to be protected from such attacks, I make no apology for that. And Australian law agrees with me.

Quote:

Freedom to criticise must be protected, but protecting people's right to not be vilified is just as important. Especially when it is based on outright lies. A good example here is the common smear on muslims that they love pedophilia - based on the claim that the Prophet was a pedophile.

Vilification based on racial and/or ethno-religious affiliation absolutely is unlawful under Australian law - even if the line between 'ethnicity' and 'religion' is blurred.

A good example related to this would be if a visibly muslim woman was working as a carer at a child-care facility, and someone made a public statement to the local community that she shouldn't be in that role because she supports pedophilia - based not on any known behaviours of that carer, but by simple virtue of the fact that she is muslim

Perfectly in line with what "our freedoms" actually are - as I said.

So people should still be allowed to claim that the prophet was a pedophile?

Causing someone to lose their job by making a false accusation of pedophilia is going to get you sued, regardless of whether they are a Muslim. However we are well within our rights to argue for example that someone who promotes pedophilia should be prevented from working in a childcare centre, even if they do not actually engage in it.

I notice also that you left out the next bit of the quote:

Quote:

This has been thoroughly debunked in another thread - but don't expect the pedophile smear to stop any time soon.

This was in reference to the claim that Muhammed was a pedophile, right? Is the veracity of this claim relevant to what we are allowed to say?

Another example from above:

Quote:

Thats why I supported punishing those muslims who were waving beheading placards at the Sydney rally last year - just as much as I believe people who incite violence and/or intimidation against muslims should be punished. I believe that position is quite reasonable and Australian law agrees with me.

This is not actually "Perfectly in line with what "our freedoms" actually are", is it?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #176 - Nov 4^th, 2013 at 11:30pm

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2013 at 9:45pm:

So people should still be allowed to claim that the prophet was a pedophile?

Yes - I have never said otherwise.

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2013 at 9:45pm:

However we are well within our rights to argue for example that someone who promotes pedophilia should be prevented from working in a childcare centre, even if they do not actually engage in it.

I am not talking about muslims who promote pedophilia, I am talking about muslims who do not promote it, but are vilified as pedophile promoters for no other reason than for identifying as a muslim.

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2013 at 9:45pm:

This was in reference to the claim that Muhammed was a pedophile, right? Is the veracity of this claim relevant to what we are allowed to say?

1. You can say what you damn well please about the prophet - regardless of whether its true or not - as already stated.

2. Vilification is vilification. If someone feels intimidated or harassed by what someone says to them, or about them vis-a-vis their ethno-religious association, then its vilification, and under our law illegal. Its that simple.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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BatteriesNotIncluded Gold Member Offline MediocrityNET: because people died for this! Posts: 26966	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #177 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 4:14am Mor than 10% is a well known problem
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Yadda

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #178 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 9:35am

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 4^th, 2013 at 11:30pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2013 at 9:45pm:

However we are well within our rights to argue for example that someone who promotes pedophilia should be prevented from working in a childcare centre, even if they do not actually engage in it.

I am not talking about muslims who promote pedophilia, I am talking about muslims who do not promote it, but are vilified as pedophile promoters for no other reason than for identifying as a muslim.

For a moslem, where does being a moslem end, and their 'individualism' begin ?

Moslems can so easily make public claims about their individual virtue.

Moslems can also make public claims, separating their virtue, from the violent actions of persons [moslems!] who claim to be acting on behalf of their religion, ....and so, nobody can 'pin down', the virtuous moslems.

And so, virtuous individual moslems will continue to identify with ISLAM,
.....identify with a philosophy which justifies moslem violence against people who are not moslems [because the victims of moslem violence do not believe what moslems believe].

But [in the wake of some violent act, done in the name of Allah/ISLAM], if you ask an individual moslem what he believes, he will invariably tell you that he, personally, believes in and promotes human virtue!

+++

Examples of PRIMARY instruction of Allah/ISLAM to the moslem, regarding the type of relationship a moslem will always have with "those who reject Faith."
.....

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."
Koran 4.101

"O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends.....offering them (your) love,..."
Koran 60.1

"And fight 'spiritually struggle' with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

the threats posed by Islam
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1368872008/15#15
Quote:

"For what its worth, I believe I contribute positively to my local (non muslim) community, through my every day behaviour and activities. I believe that the vast majority of muslims in Australia are doing similar things in their local communities - coexisting, contributing to the local community, and presenting the right face of islam. IMO these local behaviours all over the country feed into the national face of islam, which helps create a mainstream Australian muslim community that is loyal, integrated, pro-peace and anti-extremism."

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

Q.
Is gandalf a moslem ?

Q.
In what sense is gandalf fulfilling his duty, as a moslem, to ISLAM ?

Q.
If a moslem [specifically claims that] he does not follow very specific tenets and societal values that are specifically promoted and encouraged by his religion, then in what sense is that moslem a moslem ?

"Muslims are one ummah (community)

to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."
Ishaq:231i
Villawood Detention Centre fires under control,
Yadda wrote on Apr 21^st, 2011 at 1:47pm:

From what i know, from my study, of ISLAM's own texts, and doctrines, i would confidently make this statement;

Every good moslem in Australia [and indeed, every good moslem on the planet], by **self declaring** as a moslem, is self declaring a criminal intent [by our laws] against local non-moslems.

Every moslem!

Every non-moslem should be aware and recognise, that ISLAM is in fact, a criminal compact among moslems, to wage a violent 'religious' war against ALL non-moslems ['unbelievers'].

And in my estimation, every good moslem **does understand** what his/her **religious** OBLIGATION is, to ISLAM, and to fellow moslems.

i

From time to time, we see exposed, the real moslem intent [towards all disbelievers],
....an intent which is endorsed and 'authorised' by 'mainstream' ISLAM, and which is revealed exposed by this prestigious moslem scholar......

Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims
London, Sept.8 [2007]
A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
A former Sharia judge in Pakistan's Supreme Court, 64-year-old Usmani, is...a regular visitor to Britain.
Polite and softly spoken....
He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire non-Muslim world was intent on destroying Islam, but justifies an aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #179 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 7:47pm

Quote:

I am not talking about muslims who promote pedophilia, I am talking about muslims who do not promote it, but are vilified as pedophile promoters for no other reason than for identifying as a muslim.

Would you mind clarifying which group you put yourself in?

Quote:

1. You can say what you damn well please about the prophet - regardless of whether its true or not - as already stated.

Why did you include this in your example of what should be banned?

Quote:

Especially when it is based on outright lies.

Quote:

2. Vilification is vilification.

That's great. Have you considered a career as a lawyer?

Quote:

If someone feels intimidated or harassed by what someone says to them, or about them vis-a-vis their ethno-religious association, then its vilification, and under our law illegal. Its that simple.

Would I be breaking Australian law if I said that you promote pedophilia and you felt intimidated or harassed?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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