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Muslims want to silence and intimidate you (Read 80585 times)

freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #255 - Apr 9^th, 2014 at 8:12pm

Quote:

You tell me - you seem to think that certain types of censorship are not so bad.

I think that depicting women getting beaten and raped on screen is bad. This does not make censorship a good thing. It makes it the lesser of two evils. It's called a value Gandalf. I value freedom of speech. I demand a real justification for censorship. You on the other hand toss it out the window at every opportunity presented to you.

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Your word filters won't break democracy - is that how you justify it?

I don't need to justify it because the word filters do not undermine freedom of speech.

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Ah. I must support censorship for the sake of not offending now. Thanks FD, its good you constantly telling me what I think.

I did not tell you what you think. You stated that there are only two reasons you would support censorship. Yet when I queried you about it, you could not come up with an explanation for how your excuses fitted into those two reasons. You accuse others of cynically using wishy washy western liberal morals, but it is you who does this. You take real principle and values with real meanings, and you make them wishy washy so that you can pretend to support them at your convenience. But they mean nothing to you. You do not know what they mean. You cannot comprehend how someone else might be guided by these values. Freedom of speech is an entirely alien concept to you. You try to talk the talk, but you are like a fish out of water. You don't even know how to pretend to support it without making a fool of yourself. At your weakest you fall back to insisting that other Australians share your views, but you can only do this by completely misunderstanding the words they use.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #256 - Apr 9^th, 2014 at 9:30pm

freediver wrote on Apr 9^th, 2014 at 8:12pm:

I think that depicting women getting beaten and raped on screen is bad. This does not make censorship a good thing. It makes it the lesser of two evils.

So let me get this straight - you would prefer that a depiction of a woman getting beaten and raped on screen be censored? If so, then that does make censorship a good thing - at least in that case.

I put it to you that such a position is hypocritical.

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It's called a value Gandalf. I value freedom of speech. I demand a real justification for censorship.

Whats a "real justification" then? Censorship should be according to your values but not for others? Thats pretty much what it comes down to. I find this revelation that you seem to support censorship in some cases quite extraordinary. You start out by grandstanding about how we should all man the barricades to fight censorship, and freedom of speech is everything - only to drop this bombshell, that censorship is only bad when its against certain values - FD's values. You know what FD? That makes you no better than the crazy muslim censorship boards in Malaysia and Egypt. If you weren't being hypocritical and genuinely believed in free speech, you would be standing up for the right of film makers to depict rape and torture and murder on screen. The very existence of a censorship board in Australia who could potentially arbitrarily ban any film in Australia at will, should be anathema to you. But its not. As usual, its only bad when the muslims do it.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95135 Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #257 - Apr 9^th, 2014 at 9:42pm No no, FD just wants the freedom of speech to have a jolly good hoot.
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Soren

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #258 - Apr 9^th, 2014 at 10:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 9^th, 2014 at 9:30pm:

Censorship should be according to your values but not for others?

Yes, you've got it.

This is not a Muslim society. Muslim values are irrelevant insofar as they clash with the local ones.

I don't see what you expect - accommodation of every alien value, no matter how contrary or incompatible with local values?

I don't see Muslims welcoming non-Muslim values. Why would you expect a welcome for your values from non-Muslims?

Don't tell me you are suddenly a humanist universalist - as long as there is a Muslim value to foist upon others.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #259 - Apr 9^th, 2014 at 10:22pm

Quote:

I put it to you that such a position is hypocritical.

And this is exactly why I describe your understanding of freedom of speech, and western values in general, as infantile. According to you I can only value freedom of speech if I also demand the right to go to a cinema and watch movies that depict sexual violence. No wonder you describe it as wishy washy - it makes no sense to you, because you are a Muslim. Maybe I got that round the wrong way. To you, it is wishy washy, and you probably believe you are not lying when you claim to support freedom of speech and that your position is no different to most other Australians, and is even closer to mine.

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Whats a "real justification" then?

As far as I know you cannot depict sex and violence in the same act. You can depict them separately. The reasoning is that it will encourage rape. I have no idea how sound that reasoning is. I don't really care. Nor do I care about all the other classifications and restrictions, libel and slander laws, advertising codes etc. There are no rapists or anti-rapists threatening to go on a violent rampage if they don't get what they want. There is no agenda to restrict people's views or thoughts on rape and use this as a foot in the door strategy for further restrictions on public debate. There or just some bureaucrats in a dingy office trying to balance the competing values of our society. Both of these values are genuine and it is not hypocrisy to hold them both at the same time. If I were to say that freedom of speech is absolute and trumps every other value, principle and moral we have, then you could call me a hypocrite. But you can only pull out the hypocrite line by pretending to be an imbecile. I do not believe for one minute that despite living in Australia and benefitting from all our freedoms that you are genuinely so clueless about what they mean.

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Censorship should be according to your values but not for others?

If people actually value freedom of speech and understand what it means and why it is so important, then like I said I am not too concerned about the details. People will always argue about which values are more important or how we should deal with conflicting values. This is a good thing. I do not think I am alone in not wanting movies screened that might lead to people getting raped. I can usually trust our society to get the balance right, and I will speak up when I think they are getting it wrong. You call this bigotry. I call it my duty as a responsible citizen.

Censorship should not be about your values Gandalf, because you are a hypocrite. 90% of our population I would trust implicitly to understand the issues and get it right, or close enough to right. I am yet to meet a single Muslim who I think I could trust on this issue.

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I find this revelation that you seem to support censorship in some cases quite extraordinary.

I find you understanding of freedom infantile.

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You start out by grandstanding about how we should all man the barricades to fight censorship

There are no barricades Gandalf. You think there are, and you have your white flag ready to wave as soon as the Muslim nutjobs get upset about something. But you are surrendering too soon. You are waving your white flag frantically, and the other Muslims are looking at their feet and mumbling to themselves about it not being time yet.

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If you weren't being hypocritical and genuinely believed in free speech, you would be standing up for the right of film makers to depict rape and torture and murder on screen.

I watch shows all the time that depict rape, murder and torture. Not all three at the same time of course.

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The very existence of a censorship board in Australia who could potentially arbitrarily ban any film in Australia at will, should be anathema to you. But its not. As usual, its only bad when the muslims do it.

It is bad that Islam is the greatest barrier to freedom and democracy in the world. It is bad that there are genuine, serious attempts to impose backwards Islamic standards on the western world. This is not a disagreement over X vs R ratings or whether the link between rape and depictions of violent sex is real. This is a disagreement over who should get their head chopped for thinking the wrong thoughts. You are doing your best to trivialise it of course. I'm surprised you haven't rolled out any poo jokes.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #260 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:04am

freediver wrote on Apr 9^th, 2014 at 10:22pm:

Speaking of infantile....

You could start by getting even a basic grasp of my positions rather than the default knee-jerk response: "gahh you hate our freedoms - and its all because you are a muslim gahh!". You have misrepresented me at every turn, and as such you cannot possibly make any sort of assessment about how far my views are from most other Australians. You haven't come even remotely close to identifying any points on where I oppose free speech more than mainstream Australia. The fact is, Australia values free speech as long as it doesn't incite violence or intimidate - and that is exactly my position. You have indicated that you think intimidation and non-specific incitement to violence should be acceptable - which makes you the extremist in this society, not me.

The rest of your confused and contradictory ramble about "the details don't concern me - as long as its done by people who understand the right values" is a complete joke, and just highlights your prejudice.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #261 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:34am

Quote:

You haven't come even remotely close to identifying any points on where I oppose free speech more than mainstream Australia.

In every example presented in this thread you chose censorship, even in situations where Australians are clearly allowed to speak their mind and support this right. You even tried to blame this on me by "cornering" you with an example where it might take an ounce of spine to support freedom of speech.

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The fact is, Australia values free speech as long as it doesn't incite violence or intimidate - and that is exactly my position.

And my point is that you have no understanding of these concepts either. You even tried to apply the "inciting violence" example to Muhammed killing a poet who mocked him. In your desperation to equate Isamic and western values you must destroy the meaning of both.

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The rest of your confused and contradictory ramble about "the details don't concern me - as long as its done by people who understand the right values" is a complete joke, and just highlights your prejudice.

By people who have the right values. Even if you understood what freedom of speech means and why it is important, I still would not trust you to value it enough to reach the right balance. The fact that the details and complications with conflicting values elude you is just another demonstration of how infantile your concept of freedom is.

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You could start by getting even a basic grasp of my positions

I could do this if you weren't so afraid to reveal your position. You openly pretend to support western values, but you refuse to discuss it in any detail because it is merely a facade, and the facade is crumbling.

freediver wrote on Feb 13^th, 2014 at 10:18pm:

Gandalf, what exactly are these "wishy-washy western liberal morals"?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 10:47am:

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 6:53am:

Yes you have already tried to justify Muhammed's actions. But you would never attempt to justify such behaviour in any other context. Hence my surprise that you described it as an excellent example to follow.

Why would that surprise you? I think executing traitors in time of war who are conspiring to commit genocide on your small nation is an excellent example to follow, and I doubt too many people would disagree. The only people who pretend to disagree is those who cynically use wishy-washy western liberal morals as a tool to smear Muhammad and Islam.

Is it any of the following?

a) Not executing bound POWs (especially after the war is over and they no longer pose a direct threat, when they did not even start the war and many had even helped Muhammed, despite him previously threatening them with death and openly preaching anti-Jewish propaganda).
b) Not engaging in collective punishment.
c) Not executing people without a trial.
d) Not raping their wives and subjecting them to a life of sexual slavery.
e) Not forcing your allies to carry out war crimes on your behalf in order to undermine their ability to hold it against you.
f) Not constantly making up bullshit excuses to justify your abhorrent behaviour.

Also, if you insist that these Jews wanted to commit genocide, would you also class as genocide Muhammed's actions in slaughtering them? Is there any rational reason to think that they would have treated the Muslims as badly as the Muslims treated them?

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rather than the default knee-jerk response: "gahh you hate our freedoms - and its all because you are a muslim gahh!"

If there is a reason other than Islam for why you have such muddled and hypocritical concepts of freedom, perhaps it is time you told us.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95135 Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #262 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 10:49am freediver wrote on Apr 9^th, 2014 at 10:22pm: No wonder you describe it as wishy washy - it makes no sense to you, because you are a Muslim. Google Taqiyya. Quote: I'm surprised you haven't rolled out any poo jokes. Miam miam.
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Karnal

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #263 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 10:56am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:04am:

You have indicated that you think intimidation and non-specific incitement to violence should be acceptable - which makes you the extremist in this society, not me.

No no, FD values freedom of speech.

As long as it doesn't include Muselmen, dirty movies or poo jokes.

FD, you see, is a libertarian.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #264 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 11:18am

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:34am:

My position on censorship is clearly articulated, consistent and perfectly in line with mainstream Australian values. That you continue to throw accusations at me without actually being able to give any sort of specific explanation of how I am being the unreasonable freedom-hating muslim demonstrates what a non-existent case you have. Anyone who objectively reads the first 10 pages of this thread will understand that, and will see right away that it is you, desperately trying to corner me and pigeon hole me into the stereotypical muslim caricature, who is being completely unreasonable and irrational on this.

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:34am:

You even tried to apply the "inciting violence" example to Muhammed killing a poet who mocked him.

You see "poet" and "executed" and draw the usual baseless conclusions. You don't even pretend to know any of the facts of the case - as you casually, and without any basis, dismiss the actions as merely "mocking him". Thats what we call prejudice. I apply the "inciting violence" example to this, because that exactly what it was. Or perhaps you can explain to me how making speeches calling on people to kill Muhammad and his followers is not inciting violence. Of course you can be all morally outraged at the idea of killing a poet for inciting violence - but you simply cannot deny that it was a case of inciting violence.

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:34am:

By people who have the right values.

Yes we know FD - and those people are non-muslims.

I remember you saying many times before how freedom of speech is such a fragile thing and that we must be ever vigilant to protect it. Little did we know then that you only meant that its only muslims we must be vigilant against. Having institutions set up that can and do randomly censor artistic material out of the public domain? No problem at all - because its done by people "who have the right values". As long as its not muslims placing bans on Russel Crowe, the details don't matter. I mean its not as if you should ever be concerned if a large government department suddenly bans any of its employees from making private criticisms of their employer - and encourages them all to dob their mates in if they violate this ban. No thats not a concern at all - because its done by people with the right values.

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:34am:

If there is a reason other than Islam for why you have such muddled and hypocritical concepts of freedom, perhaps it is time you told us.

Fascinating that you trott out my position on what should happen to traitors who attempt to facilitate genocide in a time of war - as an example of my hatred for free speech. Maybe its about defending the right of the Qurayza to secretly meet with the people trying to destroy your city - and discuss how they can assist the enemy in massacring the muslims. I happen to think thats a freedom that should not be protected. But thats just me - no doubt its just my infantile view of freedom Undecided

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #265 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 12:31pm

Quote:

My position on censorship is clearly articulated

You made a very clear statement limited to two scenarios in which you would over-rule freedom of speech. Then you started giving more examples that had nothing to do with those two justifications. Then you stopped talking about it, ignored my questions and went back to vague reassurances that you are just like everyone else.

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consistent and perfectly in line with mainstream Australian values

It is only consistent with Australian values while you keep it vague to the point of being meaningless. No normal Australian would apply the incitement to violence justification to Muhammed slaughtering a poet who mocked him.

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That you continue to throw accusations at me without actually being able to give any sort of specific explanation of how I am being the unreasonable freedom-hating muslim

This thread is one example after another of you pretending to support freedom of speech, except for every specific scenario that was presented to you, where in practice you oppose freedom of speech. You would never admit you hate it like the more extreme Muslims do, but you do discard it at every possible opportunity.

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You see "poet" and "executed" and draw the usual baseless conclusions.

Sorry I keep forgetting. He deserved it for being a scheming Jew.

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Yes we know FD - and those people are non-muslims.

You are the closest I have seen, but even you fall far short of supporting freedom with any spine. Most Muslims are openly hostile to the concept, though like you many also try to spin it as a "different take" on freedom.

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I remember you saying many times before how freedom of speech is such a fragile thing and that we must be ever vigilant to protect it. Little did we know then that you only meant that its only muslims we must be vigilant against.

Quote me. One of my main reasons for starting this website was to combat genuine and organised efforts at censorship by another group that had nothing to do with religion.

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Having institutions set up that can and do randomly censor artistic material

There is nothing at all random about it. That it is beyond your comprehension merely shows that you do not comprehend freedom, not that it is random.

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Fascinating that you trott out my position on what should happen to traitors who attempt to facilitate genocide in a time of war

What I was "trotting out" is you casual dismissal of western liberal morals - a casual dismissal that you have since been unable to explain, despite many prompts and direct requests. Yet at the same time you criticise me for not understanding your position.

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Maybe its about defending the right of the Qurayza to secretly meet with the people trying to destroy your city

Were there 800 people in this meeting? Were any of them convicted for an actual crime, or given a chance to defend themselves? Or were all 800 of them summarily executed by a mindless religious zealot?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #266 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 3:29pm

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

You made a very clear statement limited to two scenarios in which you would over-rule freedom of speech. Then you started giving more examples that had nothing to do with those two justifications.

Rubbish. Give me one of these examples that had nothing to do with inciting violence or intimidation. Just one.

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

Sorry I keep forgetting. He deserved it for being a scheming Jew.

Thats the exact response I would expect from you. You are second to none in creating a parody of yourself.

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

Quote me. One of my main reasons for starting this website was to combat genuine and organised efforts at censorship by another group that had nothing to do with religion.

You feign horror at muslim countries for censoring movies, then ramp up the spineless apologetics for a country like ours that has the institutions set up to do the exact same thing. You then comically claim thats perfectly fine - because its done "by people who have the right values". What a joke.

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

There is nothing at all random about it. That it is beyond your comprehension merely shows that you do not comprehend freedom, not that it is random.

Whats beyond your comprehension, it seems, is that the institutions are in place to make it completely random. And just to be clear, there has been cases of censorship that are outside the sexual violence/abuse category. Films have been banned for mere sexual content, and TV is prohibited from showing full-frontal nudity. As for the internet, a 1995 act gives the Commonwealth the power to take down sites that contain "nonviolent sexually explicit content between consenting adults" with impunity - if they are hosted on domestic servers.

It absolutely can be random, and you should be manning the barricades against this outrageous violation of our freedoms.

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

What I was "trotting out" is you casual dismissal of western liberal morals

Yes, western liberal morals do tend to get thrown out the window when you are facing an existential threat. What seems to fly over your head is the absurdity of using this to try and prove my hostility to freedom of speech.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #267 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 6:55pm

Quote:

You feign horror at muslim countries for censoring movies

No need to be a drama queen about it Gandalf. I am giving you my opinion. I have patiently explained the significance of it, despite the superficial triviality of a hollywood movie.

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then ramp up the spineless apologetics for a country like ours that has the institutions set up to do the exact same thing. You then comically claim thats perfectly fine - because its done "by people who have the right values". What a joke.

I have patiently explained how it is different. Australia values freedom of speech. Most of the developed world does. Muslim countries don't. You are projecting an absolutism onto me that is simply not there. If I actually acted the way you insist I should in order not to be a hypocrite, then I would be exactly the type of mindless zealot I criticise here. None of my views are an excuse for not thinking for yourself, and you merely reinforce your total lack of understanding of concepts like freedom by insisting it should. Freedom is not a 1400 year old book that tells you whose head to chop off.

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Whats beyond your comprehension, it seems, is that the institutions are in place to make it completely random.

How is it random?

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Films have been banned for mere sexual content, and TV is prohibited from showing full-frontal nudity.

Then why is it that I see full frontal nudity on TV? I agree that we are prudes. This is a hangover from Elizabethan morals that we don't share with continental Europeans. But most of the institutionalised barriers have been broken down, and I fully support this process and expect to see it through to it's end. Right now there is a guy walking round England (of all places) totally naked. I can only hope he picks his seasons. He is challenging the existing laws and laregly getting away with it. He is going right through the middle of towns and villages.

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It absolutely can be random

So you are not claiming that it is?

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Yes, western liberal morals do tend to get thrown out the window when you are facing an existential threat.

You toss them out at every opportunity. The bad Muslims only have to look at you sideways and you beg them to tell you which freedoms you should discard.

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What seems to fly over your head is the absurdity of using this to try and prove my hostility to freedom of speech.

This discussion right here proves your hostility to freedom. You are creating an infantile strawman of freedom to attack in order to make your own views more palatable, while at the same time pretending your views are completely compatible with western notions of freedom. You want it to be a choice between Islam and an equally zealous and mindless pursuit of a narrow, absolutist freedom. The simple reality is that it isn't. It is possible to genuinely support and value freedom, democracy and human rights, despite their contradictory nature, without being a libertarian or anarchist version of Osama bin Laden. Most westerners manage this quite easily barely a thought. For some reason Muslims always make it out to be the most complicated thing in the world. I had the exact same discussion with Abu that I am having with you now, and he said the same stupid things that you are saying.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Soren

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #268 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:40pm

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 6:55pm:

For some reason Muslims always make it out to be the most complicated thing in the world. I had the exact same discussion with Abu that I am having with you now, and he said the same stupid things that you are saying.

The reason is that Islam prescribes so many thing but not freedom of thought and not freedom of speech.
As a matter of fact, it prescribes no freedom of any kind.
It prescribes its opposite, submission.
So a Muslim is unable to reconcile submission to every kind of law and rule laid down for his behaviour on the one hand, and the Western expectation that he demonstrate free agency and ability to think and speak freely (ie without following Islamic dogma's prescriptions and proscriptions).

You area asking Abu, Gandy and all of them to simultaneously submit unquestioningly and exercise free thought. They can't. You can't both submit and be free.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95135 Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #269 - Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:48pm Let’s see now. We have Abu, and now we have never-ever. What are we missing here? Oh - of course. It is it is it is. Isn’t it.
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