Australian Politics Forum - Muslims want to silence and intimidate you

freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #315 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 18^th, 2014 at 8:46am:

I gave you the link.

That was from 2010. The most recent one (2013) puts Afghanistan equal last with Somalia and North Korea LOL

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

You do realise that it makes no effort at all to gauge actual democratic processes, don't you? Why would you waste everyone's time trying to prove a point with that? Sometimes it seems like you actually want the democracy to fail so you have something to whinge about.

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Karnal

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #316 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 8:11pm

freediver wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 18^th, 2014 at 8:46am:

I gave you the link.

That was from 2010. The most recent one (2013) puts Afghanistan equal last with Somalia and North Korea LOL

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

You do realise that it makes no effort at all to gauge actual democratic processes, don't you? Why would you waste everyone's time trying to prove a point with that? Sometimes it seems like you actually want the democracy to fail so you have something to whinge about.

Sometimes it seems you have no idea what demokracy is, FD.

Garry certainly doesn’t, but the CIA have never been in the demokracy business, so what would they know?

If the Central Intelligence Agency doesn’t know demokracy, who does?

Ah.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #317 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 3:34pm

freediver wrote on Apr 21^st, 2014 at 6:47pm:

You do realise that it makes no effort at all to gauge actual democratic processes, don't you? Why would you waste everyone's time trying to prove a point with that?

Being rated the worst country in the world and equal with North Korea for lack of transparency and corruption isn't exactly what you would expect to see in an "established" democracy is it?

You're the one parroting the fairy tale that Amerika delivered democracy to Afghanistan - based on absolutely nothing except for the fact that they have elections. Big whoop. The worst dictatorships in the world have elections, but we don't pretend they have democracy.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #318 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 5:13pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 3:34pm:

[quote author=freediver link=1369558442/315#315 date=1398070076]The worst dictatorships in the world have elections, but we don't pretend they have democracy.

Well, we do if they're one of us. Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, you name it. They're the good guys. They're demokracies.

Iran, Syria, Yemen, Labia - they're the bad guys. Sure they have erections, but not our erections. They're regimes.

I say, G, why don't you chaps stop whinging and come on board? There's plenty of room on the demokracy train - you just have to vote for Uncle's man.

After all, you gotta have a dream, if you don't have a dream, then how are you going to maka your dream come true?

Stay positive, habibis, and keep dreaming.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #319 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 9:00pm

Quote:

Being rated the worst country in the world and equal with North Korea for lack of transparency and corruption isn't exactly what you would expect to see in an "established" democracy is it?

No. But I would expect you to at least be objective. It was not "rated the worst country in the world and equal with North Korea for lack of transparency and corruption". It was rated worst for perceptions of corruption. This is in no small part due to the efforts of Muslims such as yourself and Abu to talk down democracy at every opportunity. There are plenty of organisations that take a serious look at these issues. You deliberately chose one that avoided measuring the effectiveness of democracy on any objective basis.

Quote:

You're the one parroting the fairy tale that Amerika delivered democracy to Afghanistan

I put this in the bleeding obvious category.

Quote:

The worst dictatorships in the world have elections, but we don't pretend they have democracy.

Can you tell the difference?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #320 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 9:16pm

freediver wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 9:00pm:

Can you tell the difference?

Yes - when its countries that stand in the way of US geo-strategic interests, the elections are a farce. But when its countries where we're desperately trying to put a positive spin on 10 years of failed rebuilding and trillions of wasted money after aggressive and unjust invasions - then its "establishing democracy".

See? Easy innit.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #321 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 9:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 14^th, 2014 at 8:57pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 14^th, 2014 at 6:03pm:

Sorry, I was joking when I suggested that by "inciting violence" you really meant that Muslims will go on a violent rampage if they don't get what they want. Is this what you mean - that you support censorship to appease Muslim nutjobs? Is this the same "incitement to violence" view you insist is shared by most normal Australians?

no sane person would choose people being killed over censorship - not even you. Its really that simple.

Gandalf, can you please clarify - when you gave the two reasons why you would oppose free speech - one of them being that you oppose free speech that incites violence - you really meant that you oppose free speech that Muslims will react violently to? Do you think this is what most Australians mean when they use the phrase "inciting violence", and that your views are compatible with mainstream Australia?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #322 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 9:38pm

freediver wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 9:20pm:

Gandalf, can you please clarify - when you gave the two reasons why you would oppose free speech - one of them being that you oppose free speech that incites violence - you really meant that you oppose free speech that Muslims will react violently to?

lol no.

As explained umpteen times before, that was your narrow scenario you gave me - you literally said (paraphrasing) 'would you choose censorship or people dying?' I chose the only sane option. It is not a scenario that can be applied to a real-life situation. You then clarified and said actually, the 'people dying' part is not set in stone - and what you really meant was that the non-censorship option could come with pro-active measures to prevent any possible violence. I then immediately clarified my position and said I agreed.

I do not, have not and never will support censorship to appease bullies and thugs he seek to impose their freedom-hating values on everyone else.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #323 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 9:51pm

You made this post after I brought up the apparent contradiction.

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 8:04am:

The fact is, Australia values free speech as long as it doesn't incite violence or intimidate - and that is exactly my position.

So why do you keep making this claim when it clearly is not true?

Quote:

It is not a scenario that can be applied to a real-life situation.

Can you explain how Muslims threatening violence and mayhem if they do not get to censor their way is not a real life situation?

Quote:

and what you really meant was that the non-censorship option could come with pro-active measures to prevent any possible violence

There is no such thing. It is impossible to prevent Muslims being violent. You accuse me (with plenty of 'paraphrasing') of putting forward unrealistic situations, yet your position always depends on being able to predict the future.

Quote:

I do not, have not and never will support censorship to appease bullies and thugs he seek to impose their freedom-hating values on everyone else.

How is this different to the scenario I put forward where you supported censorship? Is it inconceivable to you that Muslim "bullies" might kill someone in order to get their way? Is it inconceivable to you that we may have to actually fight to preserve our freedoms?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #324 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 10:03pm The only relevant point here is that I never meant to say what you're clearly implying that I said - that I want to use censorship to appease bullies and thugs. I thought I made that abundantly clear when I clarified my position after you clarified yours. Funny how you never quote those posts.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #325 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 10:06pm

Quote:

The only relevant point here is that I never meant to say what you're clearly implying that I said - that I want to use censorship to appease bullies and thugs.

Yet that is exactly what you said. Paraphrasing, of course.

Quote:

I thought I made that abundantly clear when I clarified my position after you clarified yours. Funny how you never quote those posts.

You mean how I "tricked" you? All I see is you spewing the same tripe over and over again.

Your position is nothing like Australian values, because you would hold up the white flag to the Muslim extremists at the first opportunity. Then you would no doubt insist they tricked you.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #326 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 10:17pm freediver wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 10:06pm: Your position is nothing like Australian values My values are carbon copies of mainstream Australian values. You have singularly failed to demonstrate that they are not, and no obfuscating or putting words in my mouth is going to change that.
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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #327 - Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 12:27pm

Your position does not even make sense. You rely on knowing ahead of time whether not censoring will lead to Muslim extremists killing people, in which case you will appease them, or whether you will be able to completely prevent violence, in which case you will offer your limp wristed support for freedom of speech. There is a wide gulf between these two. Reality fits entirely between them, without touching the sides. Most Australians have a firm grasp of this reality and appreciate the price that has been paid for freedom, and the price that may need to be paid again. Accusing me of tricking you does not clarify anything. It merely highlights your refusal to acknowledge reality while building your facade of support for freedom of speech. Your whole case rests on equating reality, and the tough choices people have to make, with insanity.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #328 - Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 5:54pm freediver wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 12:27pm: You rely on knowing ahead of time whether not censoring will lead to Muslim extremists killing people Incorrect. Remember the bit about your scenario (the way I originally interpreted it) could never reflect reality?
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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #329 - Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 6:31pm

Yes I am aware of your refusal to interpret anything I say in a realistic manner. You did it again earlier on this page:

Quote:

You then clarified and said actually, the 'people dying' part is not set in stone - and what you really meant was that the non-censorship option could come with pro-active measures to prevent any possible violence.

Why are you trying so hard to keep this discussion as far from reality as possible? In what way is confining your opinions to outside the realm of reality 'clarifying' anything?

The reality is that Australians, and westerners in general, have killed millions of people in defense of our freedom, and we will do it again if necessary. Your limp wristed obfuscations, and insistence that everyone else would pull out the white flag to appease the extremists as eagerly as you, do not reflect Australian values in any way at all.

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« Last Edit: Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 6:36pm by freediver »

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