Australian Politics Forum - Muslims want to silence and intimidate you

freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #345 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:21pm

Soren wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 11:38am:

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 9:37am:

All the wars we have fought, and the people who have died to protect our freedom, are a figment of my imagination, a caricature of our past.

Correct.

Or I should clarify - many people may have died thinking they were protecting our freedom, but they were as deluded as you are. The reality is, every man and woman who has died fighting in Australia's wars died in the name of protecting either British or American economic hegemony.

The sad truth is - engaging ourselves in unnecessary wars of aggression threatens our freedoms, not protects them.

With Anglo-American economic dominance comes freedom. All the rivals of Anglo-American hegemony have been forces of unfreedom: Germany, Russia, China, Japan, Islam.

I would go further and say that our economic dominance is caused by our freedom. The more free we become, the more our economy flourishes. This does not mean that we merely see freedom as a path to wealth. We genuinely value it, and we genuinely fought to protect it, over and over again.

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Karnal

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #346 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 1:33pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:21pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 11:38am:

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 9:37am:

All the wars we have fought, and the people who have died to protect our freedom, are a figment of my imagination, a caricature of our past.

Correct.

Or I should clarify - many people may have died thinking they were protecting our freedom, but they were as deluded as you are. The reality is, every man and woman who has died fighting in Australia's wars died in the name of protecting either British or American economic hegemony.

The sad truth is - engaging ourselves in unnecessary wars of aggression threatens our freedoms, not protects them.

With Anglo-American economic dominance comes freedom. All the rivals of Anglo-American hegemony have been forces of unfreedom: Germany, Russia, China, Japan, Islam.

I would go further and say that our economic dominance is caused by our freedom.

Economic dominance caused by Freedom?

You seem to have missed the point that most of the Western world has been in a sustained economic recession since 2008.

And this recession is a direct result of the lack of US and European financial regulation.

Freedom for some, but not others. There’s no freedom in getting a loan if you can’t pay it back. And there’s no freedom in investing in such dodgy financial products and losing your shirt. Economic dominance is caused by cheap and easy credit - until the house comes tumbling down.

Until now, Australia has survived the global recession - like Brazil, like Canada, like Russia - because of our dirt, not our Freedom.

But we’ve only survived because China keeps buying our dirt. China’s dominance is not caused by Freedom, but by credit. All those Chinese workers give their savings to the princelings’ banks, and the government keeps the interest low. In return, the princelings lend the money out to the government’s friends, who build things, pay bribes, and keep the economy - and our economy - going.

Not Freedom, FD. Our economic dominance is thanks to dirt, a billion people’s savings, and bribes.

Always, absolutely, never ever. This is the way capitalism works, and has done since it was invented by the Dutch East Indies Company.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #347 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 2:52pm freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:21pm: We genuinely value it, and we genuinely fought to protect it, over and over again. We genuinely fought to deprive others of enjoying the same freedoms we do. And everytime we do, we lose a little bit more of our own freedom.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48830 At my desk.	Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you Reply #348 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 2:56pm Did we fight in WWII to deprive the Germans and Japanese of our own freedoms? Did we lose our freedoms in the process, or strengthen them?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #349 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 3:59pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 2:56pm:

Did we fight in WWII to deprive the Germans and Japanese of our own freedoms?

Depends what you mean by freedom. If its political freedoms, then no, but if its economic freedom, then absolutely yes we did. The rise of the Nazis and their expansionist program was a direct product of the crippling Versailles treaty which was nothing more than a spiteful piece of vengeance by a victor that was at least as much at fault as Germany for starting the war. As for Japan, they lashed out as a direct response to a stifling American economic encirclement.

Of course it doesn't excuse their actions, but that was the economic reality that shouldn't be ignored.

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 2:56pm:

Did we lose our freedoms in the process, or strengthen them?

We lost freedoms while fighting them - obviously. We had conscription, heavy censorship and internment of large sections of our population. Every war we fight in our freedoms are attacked in some way - the indefinite detention without charge law that Howard brought in for the 'war on terror' is a recent example. In the US its the rampant phone tapping and other forms spying on citizens.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #350 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 5:31pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:21pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:14pm:

With Anglo-American economic dominance comes freedom. All the rivals of Anglo-American hegemony have been forces of unfreedom: Germany, Russia, China, Japan, Islam.

I would go further and say that our economic dominance is caused by our freedom.

The more free we become, the more our economy flourishes. This does not mean that we merely see freedom as a path to wealth. We genuinely value it, and we genuinely fought to protect it, over and over again.

The freedoms which a people enjoy, are a 'child' of their love of truth, and the love of fair and honest justice [among a people], imo.

If there is no love of truth, .....no justice.

If there is no justice, .....no peace.

If there is no peace, .....no chance for prosperity and freedoms.

Freedom [or liberty, or peace] is a [spiritual] blessing which only comes to men, from God.

That blessing [along with peace and prosperity] is extended to people who love truth [even to their own cost], who love justice [even to their own cost].

If a people lose their respect for truth, that people will lose everything that they value.

Strong men throughout history have often believed that they can secure their own peace and security, just by virtue of their own strength of arms.

But in the end, corruption of the political 'form' [whatever form it has taken] has always destroyed the political group who ignored and did not contain extinguish their own moral corruption.

Quote:

Lawlessness among a people is caused, and rises up, because of a general felt hatred and disdain among a people, of truth, and of justice, and of righteousness.

Its not rocket science.

Quote:

consider this logic circle...

When TRUTH [free and open] is embraced by a people, it brings JUSTICE.
JUSTICE brings PEACE.
PEACE brings PROSPERITY.
PROSPERITY brings GREED, ENVY and PRIDE [vanity] to the hearts of men.
GREED, ENVY and PRIDE are the servants of EVIL [intent].

TRUTH is always the 'cornerstone' of the [transient] building, PROSPERITY.
But, TRUTH is hated and despised by the EVIL heart.
And, if the love of TRUTH in men is displaced, by their embrace of EVIL, then....

When EVIL abides in the hearts of men [empowered by its servants GREED, ENVY and PRIDE],
....JUSTICE and PEACE will be, destroyed by EVIL [intents].
....[and the 'building'] PROSPERITY, will then quickly crumble into dust.

WAR and CONFLICT and DESTRUCTION cannot be far off.
POVERTY and WAR abide together, until they destroy PRIDE [in the heart of men].
When PRIDE is absent, TRUTH will then seek [but is not assured] a presence.

If a love a TRUTH is again embraced [among men], EVIL [intent] will be banished from among them.

Proverbs 28:4
They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.
5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Among a people generally corrupt, liberty cannot long exist.

Edmund Burke

None can love freedom so heartily, but good men; the rest have not freedom, but licence.

John Hamilton

Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

George Bernard Shaw

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #351 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 6:15pm

Quote:

Depends what you mean by freedom. If its political freedoms, then no, but if its economic freedom, then absolutely yes we did. The rise of the Nazis and their expansionist program was a direct product of the crippling Versailles treaty which was nothing more than a spiteful piece of vengeance by a victor that was at least as much at fault as Germany for starting the war.

While I agree in part, I find it hard to get over the hypocrisy of someone who says this after justifying the slaughter of every adult male after they surrendered to Muhammed with barely a fight. Furthermore, you are wrong to suggest that we fought WWII in order to impose the Versailles treaty. I hope I don't have to explain the error in your logic here.

We learned from this mistake after WWI, and the lesson was applied in the aftermath of WWII, and also in Iraq and Afghanistan. The economic rise of both Germany and Japan after WWII is testimony to this, as is the democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. We genuinely want these things, not just for ourselves, but also for our enemies. With growing freedom, we all prosper, and freedom's gain is strengthened.

Quote:

We lost freedoms while fighting them - obviously. We had conscription, heavy censorship and internment of large sections of our population. Every war we fight in our freedoms are attacked in some way - the indefinite detention without charge law that Howard brought in for the 'war on terror' is a recent example. In the US its the rampant phone tapping and other forms spying on citizens.

Of course you lose freedoms while you are still fighting the war. That does not mean that people aren't fighting to defend their freedom. I hope you aren't going to concoct another idiotic argument about freedom by claiming we cannot genuinely support freedom if we will engage in war to defend it. People do not engage in war because they enjoy the deprivations of war, and only an imbecile would claim that this is the goal of war.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #352 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 6:42pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 6:15pm:

We learned from this mistake after WWI, and the lesson was applied in the aftermath of WWII, and also in Iraq and Afghanistan. The economic rise of both Germany and Japan after WWII is testimony to this, as is the democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. We genuinely want these things, not just for ourselves, but also for our enemies. With growing freedom, we all prosper, and freedom's gain is strengthened.

Absolute bollocks on stilts. The west conducted the overthrow of the genuinely democratic government of Iran just 8 years after this "lesson" was allegedly learned. America spent most of the cold war forcefully depriving South and central America of democracy. We backed brutal dictators like Pinochet; Reagan spent all of the 80s supporting the terrorist Contras in Nicuragua fighting to overthrow the democratically elected socialist government.

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 6:15pm:

That does not mean that people aren't fighting to defend their freedom.

Of course many people genuinely believe they are fighting for freedom - I already said that.

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 6:15pm:

People do not engage in war because they enjoy the deprivations of war, and only an imbecile would claim that this is the goal of war.

lol of course thats what people do. How else would the US have got their secret programs of torture and drones and spying on their own citizens off the ground if it wasn't under the phony auspices of "fighting the war on terror".

Leaders engage in war in order to deprive their citizens the freedoms they would otherwise enjoy all the time. I can't believe you would be so naive to claim they don't.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #353 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 6:47pm

Quote:

Of course many people genuinely believe they are fighting for freedom - I already said that.

You said they were deluded. Were we imagining that we would lose our freedoms if the Nazis and Japanese won?

Quote:

Leaders engage in war in order to deprive their citizens the freedoms they would otherwise enjoy all the time. I can't believe you would be so naive to claim they don't.

Which leaders engaged in WWII with the goal of depriving their own citizens of freedom?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #354 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 7:13pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 6:47pm:

Were we imagining that we would lose our freedoms if the Nazis and Japanese won?

If anyone actually believed that - then yes.

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 6:47pm:

Which leaders engaged in WWII with the goal of depriving their own citizens of freedom?

None. WWII is not the only war though.

A more appropriate example is the so called war on terror, which is constantly invoked in order to deprive us of rights.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #355 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 7:22pm

Quote:

If anyone actually believed that - then yes.

So what would have happened if the Nazis and Japanese had won?

Quote:

None. WWII is not the only war though.

So both the leaders and the troops in WWII were doing it to protect their freedoms?

Quote:

A more appropriate example is the so called war on terror, which is constantly invoked in order to deprive us of rights.

Such as?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #356 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 7:53pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

So what would have happened if the Nazis and Japanese had won?

Be more specific. Obviously large tracts of territory would have been under Nazi and Japanese control, and it would have sucked for them from a freedom point of view. But if we're talking about Australia (which I am), our freedom was never under threat from either the Nazis or the Japanese. The nazis obviously were never threatening us, but even with the Japanese, a victory for them would have meant a considerable Chinese and SE Asian empire, but not including Australia. They never had designs on Australia, that has been well and trully established.

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

So both the leaders and the troops in WWII were doing it to protect their freedoms?

False dichotomy. The troops and even many of the leaders probably believed they were fighting for freedom. Doesn't mean they were right though. The truth is both America and the UK went to war to protect their economic hegemony from two rising powers that was starting to threaten that hegemony. Thats the reality, so who cares what the troops believed they were fighting for? I'd probably force myself to believe I was really fighting for something noble too if I was putting my arse on the line for imperialistic greed.

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

Quote:
A more appropriate example is the so called war on terror, which is constantly invoked in order to deprive us of rights.

Such as?

The US government spying on its citizens, extraordinary rendition, carte blanche on torture, indefinite detention without charge etc etc.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #357 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:01pm

Quote:

They never had designs on Australia, that has been well and trully established.

Not immediate designs, but we would have been a lonely outpost in a world governed by ruthless dictators, and we would have just lost a war. It would have only been a matter of time until the Germans, Japanese or someone else took over.

Quote:

False dichotomy. The troops and even many of the leaders probably believed they were fighting for freedom. Doesn't mean they were right though.

You tell me. Were they right?

Quote:

The truth is both America and the UK went to war to protect their economic hegemony from two rising powers that was starting to threaten that hegemony.

By say, bombing pearl harbour?

Quote:

Thats the reality, so who cares what the troops believed they were fighting for?

The leaders believed it too, apparently. We all thought we were fighting for a freedom against the Nazis and Japanese, but the reality was Mr Hegemony was pulling everyone's strings?

Quote:

I'd probably force myself to believe I was really fighting for something noble too if I was putting my arse on the line for imperialistic greed.

So that's what our soldiers were doing? We wanted to colonise Germany and Japan?

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Soren

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #358 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:12pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 1:33pm:

Economic dominance caused by Freedom?

You seem to have missed the point that most of the Western world has been in a sustained economic recession since 2008.

And this recession is a direct result of the lack of US and European financial regulation.

Freedom for some, but not others. There’s no freedom in getting a loan if you can’t pay it back. And there’s no freedom in investing in such dodgy financial products and losing your shirt. Economic dominance is caused by cheap and easy credit - until the house comes tumbling down.

Until now, Australia has survived the global recession - like Brazil, like Canada, like Russia - because of our dirt, not our Freedom.

But we’ve only survived because China keeps buying our dirt. China’s dominance is not caused by Freedom, but by credit. All those Chinese workers give their savings to the princelings’ banks, and the government keeps the interest low. In return, the princelings lend the money out to the government’s friends, who build things, pay bribes, and keep the economy - and our economy - going.

Not Freedom, FD. Our economic dominance is thanks to dirt, a billion people’s savings, and bribes.

Always, absolutely, never ever. This is the way capitalism works, and has done since it was invented by the Dutch East Indies Company.

Eyewateringly stupid neoMarxist poppycock. China will go the way of Japan. Japan was hailed as the new superpower before it went bust in the 90s.

China will bust before the decade is out. Corruption and oppression are not a business model - unless you are a commie or a PB.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims want to silence and intimidate you
Reply #359 - Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:14pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:01pm:

Not immediate designs, but we would have been a lonely outpost in a world governed by ruthless dictators, and we would have just lost a war. It would have only been a matter of time until the Germans, Japanese or someone else took over.

What, and the areas occupied by Japan were otherwise beacons of democracy and freedom? LOL

The reality is Australia at the time existed in a colonised and oppressed world. I fail to see what difference it makes to Australia's economic fortunes if our neighbours were occupied by Japanese instead of by French Dutch and British.

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:01pm:

The leaders believed it too, apparently. We all thought we were fighting for a freedom against the Nazis and Japanese, but the reality was Mr Hegemony was pulling everyone's strings?

The British and American empires were being threatened by emerging powers that were at that point being stifled economically by the economic and military reach of those two empires, and attacked accordingly. Of course the British and Americans defended themselves from these attacks. If you want to spin this as fighting for our freeeeeedums - then thats fine by me.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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