Australian Politics Forum - The Evolution of Islam

Soren

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #135 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:40pm

shockresist wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:14pm:

Hawking, 71, had originally planned to attend the conference and criticize the Israeli government in a speech, but decided not to travel to Israel. Part of the reason for this is that he is in very poor health.

Get back to us when Hawking or a Muslim for that matter conducts Beethoven's 9th symphony. Until then it's just stupid posturing.

As the maestro says, 'Look for the solution in yourself'.

Until there is a performance of the 9th in Mecca, Muslims can frankly bugger off. Until then, they must recognise that they are the barbarians of the ages. Instead of performing the brotherhood of man, they give us beheadings of all and sundry in the four corners of the earth. And the while they bleat victimhood.
Absolutely discredited.

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« Last Edit: Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:30pm by Soren »

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Yadda

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #136 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:53pm

shockresist wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:19pm:

Whay bible are you referring to?The one which has been changed, modified and full of mistakes?

What God would make a Book full of mistakes?

What God produces a book full of contradictions?

shock,

You are mistaken.

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, go quite a way to proving [at least] the integrity of the O.T. Jewish Bible...

Google;
dead sea scrolls, biblical integrity

compare that, with the hits for;

Google;
Quranic Manuscripts Sana

It is the Koran which is the fabrication.
The Sana'a mosque manuscripts prove it.

Quote:

Would the Earliest Quranic Manuscripts of Sana’a Spell the Downfall of Islam?
Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:56

The earliest Quranic manuscripts discovered in the Sana'a mosque in Yemen not only differ from the standard version, but disagree amongst themselves. Since Muslims believe that the Quran contains the verses of Allah word for word, the new finds may unravel the 'Pandora's Box' for Islam...

http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #137 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:46pm

Hawking has since stated that he was not boycotting Israel. Lets not get distracted with red herrings.

Yadda wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:09pm:

But he also claims to be a 'moderate' moslem.

I don't believe I have ever used that term to describe myself.

freediver wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:47pm:

So back to 1950, only this time they have learned to get along?

1950? By then the ethnic cleansing had already finished (round 1 anyway). You would have to go back to well before the end of the second world war - before Mr Begin and his merry crew started raiding arab towns and terrorised them into leaving. But even as early as 1920 you had the previously mentioned observation from the British foreign office about zionist provocations. Perhaps 1915 is a good year, when the British reached an agreement with the arabs that Palestine would become part of an arab state. When the Balfour declaration came out in 1917, the arabs were understandably peeved the British had gone back on their word. As one contemporary petition stated:

Quote:

we always sympathized profoundly with the persecuted Jews and their misfortunes in other countries... but there is wide difference between such sympathy and the acceptance of such a nation..ruling over us and disposing of our affairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration#Arab_opposition

freediver wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:14pm:

Actually the Arab states pretty much created Israel (and Mossad) by forcing Jews to flee to Israel at an even greater pace than Europe did

Greater pace? I don't think so. The jewish population had its most dramatic rise between about the first world war and 1947
- emigration from arab countries didn't start until 1948 - and was relatively slow.

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

Facts on the ground - 6.5 million Jews in Israel = Israel is a Jewish country.

Gandy - can you accept that? If not - what do you propose? As a Muslim, what do you say should happen to the Jews of Israel?

Lets talk about the "jewishness" of the country: Israel currently has a jewish population of around 6.5 million jewish citizens, with around 1.6 million arab citizens. On top of that there are around 4 million arab non-citizens, who barring a massive ethnic cleansing project are not going anywhere. Birth rates amongst both arab populations are higher than than the jewish population - not by a great amount, but higher.

Now if we accept the reality that the two state solution is dead, what are the options? Continue the occupation and refusal of equal rights to the Palestinians? Not practical. Allow Jordan and Egypt to annex the WB and Gaza respectively, and absorb the Palestinians into those countries? Not going to be allowed by either side. The only other option left is for Israel to annex the whole of Palestine, and grant citizenship and equal rights to the entire population. What does that mean for the jewish state? Well straight away we have a "jewish" state that is almost 50% non-jewish. With birth rates continuing as they are now, the jews will quickly become a minority. Eventually, the "jewishness" of the state will be democratically removed.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #138 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:57pm Why don't you accept the Jews' right to their own country, in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland?
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Yadda

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #139 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 12:08am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:09pm:

But he also claims to be a 'moderate' moslem.

I don't believe I have ever used that term to describe myself.

the threats posed by Islam
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1368872008/15#15
Quote:

"For what its worth, I believe I contribute positively to my local (non muslim) community, through my every day behaviour and activities. I believe that the vast majority of muslims in Australia are doing similar things in their local communities - coexisting, contributing to the local community, and presenting the right face of islam. IMO these local behaviours all over the country feed into the national face of islam, which helps create a mainstream Australian muslim community that is loyal, integrated, pro-peace and anti-extremism."

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #140 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 12:29am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

Hawking has since stated that he was not boycotting Israel. Lets not get distracted with red herrings.

Yadda wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:09pm:

But he also claims to be a 'moderate' moslem.

I don't believe I have ever used that term to describe myself.

Fine. You are an immoderate Muslim then. Apparently that is the only permitted way to be a Muslim.

In any case, culturally you and all other Muslims who adhere to Islam are culturally negligible if not outright dangerous. You are the 21st century's Calvinists - to be resisted and rejected on very level, not least on the grounds that you are in bad taste and you advocate barbarity -sharia law. You would outlaw art and music. You would forbid Beethoven, Chopin, Mozart, Schubert. You would shut art galleries and prohibit poetry and dance.

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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #141 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 12:34am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:03pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:55pm:

The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians.

The 'Palestinians' have a homeland.

And, so do the Jewish people.

Yadda, serious question: what are your feelings of the Palestinian christian population who have been the caretakers of christendom's most holy sites for hundreds of years - many of whom have been forced to flee because of the Israeli occupation. Are they just intruders who should get on their bike back to Jordan?

As to this slogan of yours, technically I, and most Australians are ethnically British. Should we all pack up and ship back to the UK?

My view is that I am every bit as "native" as the blackest Aboriginal - because both of us were born here. Likewise, the Palestinian population that was uprooted in 1948 was native in the sense that most of them had been born there, and could claim heritage to that land.

And what does "ethnically Jordanian" even mean? Jordan wasn't even created until 1922 - and it was an entirely artificial construct, created for British imperialist purposes. Is there even any such thing as "ethnically jordan"?? Linguistically, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Palestinian arabs are basically identical. There may not even be such a thing as a "Palestinian" ethnicity - but there most certainly was such a thing as Palestinian homes, farms and property that had existed for generations before their owners were forced to abandon them to make way for the creation of the jewish state. Dismissing these owners as "ethnically Jordanian" doesn't make up for the loss these people have suffered.

You’re asking Y these questions, G?

This is a soul who literally believes Leviticus is modern history.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96762	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #142 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 12:38am Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:57pm: Why don't you accept the Jews' right to their own country, in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland? Quite. Just like the Aborigines, eh? Marvellous stuff.
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Yadda

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #143 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 2:11am

Karnal wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 12:34am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:03pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:55pm:

The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians.

The 'Palestinians' have a homeland.

And, so do the Jewish people.

Yadda, serious question: what are your feelings of the Palestinian christian population who have been the caretakers of christendom's most holy sites for hundreds of years - many of whom have been forced to flee because of the Israeli occupation. Are they just intruders who should get on their bike back to Jordan?

As to this slogan of yours, technically I, and most Australians are ethnically British. Should we all pack up and ship back to the UK?

My view is that I am every bit as "native" as the blackest Aboriginal - because both of us were born here. Likewise, the Palestinian population that was uprooted in 1948 was native in the sense that most of them had been born there, and could claim heritage to that land.

And what does "ethnically Jordanian" even mean? Jordan wasn't even created until 1922 - and it was an entirely artificial construct, created for British imperialist purposes. Is there even any such thing as "ethnically jordan"?? Linguistically, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Palestinian arabs are basically identical. There may not even be such a thing as a "Palestinian" ethnicity - but there most certainly was such a thing as Palestinian homes, farms and property that had existed for generations before their owners were forced to abandon them to make way for the creation of the jewish state. Dismissing these owners as "ethnically Jordanian" doesn't make up for the loss these people have suffered.

You’re asking Y these questions, G?

This is a soul who literally believes Leviticus is modern history.

K,

Why do you fear/hate Leviticus so much ?

Have you, done anything wrong ?

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Those Torah laws were/are only applicable for a people who were/are in-covenant with their God.

The outer heathen nations, and heathens [like yourself K], had their own laws. Grin

....LOL, as if!!!

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

.....who could Jesus be talking about, K ???

Oooooooow! ....there are very scary things, in the darkness, K!!! Cry

....things which are a lot scarier than yourself,
.....you will learn.

In your new home!

No ?

Ah, its all a faerie tale anyway, eh K ? Tongue

And only little children, are afraid of the dark.

Right ?

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« Last Edit: Jun 29^th, 2013 at 2:33am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #144 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:11am

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:57pm:

Why don't you accept the Jews' right to their own country, in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland?

I do. The question is, why don't you accept the Palestinian's right to their own country in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland?

Soren wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 12:29am:

In any case, culturally you and all other Muslims... blah blah blah

Thats right Soren - if all else fails, fall back on the irrational muslim meme. Never failed you before right?

The thing is, this topic of Palestinian rights is not primarily being pushed by the muslim community - its westerners, including prominent jews like Noam Chomsky and Uri Avnery. We get a very skewed perspective here in Australia - because Australia is one of the only countries on earth that blindly follows the US policy on Israel - and both major political parties actively stifle debate on the subject. Go to Europe, and the sort of views I am putting forward are far more mainstream, and criticism of Israel is openly and rationally discussed.

This is not a muslim vs jew issue.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #145 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:37am Chomsky? I will tell you now he is a sell out and a disgrace.
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freediver

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At my desk.

Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #146 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:45am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:14pm:

Actually the Arab states pretty much created Israel (and Mossad) by forcing Jews to flee to Israel at an even greater pace than Europe did

Greater pace? I don't think so. The jewish population had its most dramatic rise between about the first world war and 1947
- emigration from arab countries didn't start until 1948 - and was relatively slow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

From the onset of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War until the early 1970s, 800,000–1,000,000 Jews left, fled, or were expelled from their homes in Arab countries; 260,000 of them reached Israel between 1948 and 1951 and amounted for 56% of the total immigration to the newly founded State of Israel.[2] 600,000 Jews from Arab and Muslim countries had reached Israel by 1972.[3][4][5] By the Yom Kippur War of 1973, most of the Jewish communities throughout the Arab World, as well as Pakistan and Afghanistan, were practically non-existent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Aliyah_from_Arab_countries

Aliyah Bet: Illegal immigration (1933–1948)

during the 14 years of its operation, 110,000 Jews immigrated to Palestine

So tell us Gandalf, which one looks more significant to you? People (especially Muslims) like to associate Israel with European interference and the aftermath of the holocaust, yet it was Arabs themselves who contributed most to it. Apparently they mistook it for a concentration camp.

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« Last Edit: Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:50am by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #147 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:18am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:57pm:

Why don't you accept the Jews' right to their own country, in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland?

I do. The question is, why don't you accept the Palestinian's right to their own country in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland?

Let me reply, for now.

'Palestinians' cannot live along side the Jewish people, because many of the 'Palestinians' act like moslems.

i.e.
Wherever moslems [moslem communities] live, moslems cannot help themselves, but feel compelled to engage in committing 'lawful' atrocities, slaughtering both, other moslems and non-moslems.

Moslems are savages.

THAT is why moslems cannot be given a 'right' to live among other human beings.

Above, i said;

"....engage in committing 'lawful' atrocities.."

e.g.

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

Moslems are savages.

Moslems believe in, engage in, 'lawful' lawlessness.

ISLAM makes lawful, every moslem lawlessness and savagery.

How ?

Allah himself

, 'legitimises' moslem lawlessness and savagery against those who reject ISLAM.

Allah himself

, is the reason why moslems can behave to atrociously, and yet, be acting so 'legally'.

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

Google;
how islam divides the world, Dar al-Harbi

Quote:

Soren wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 12:29am:

In any case, culturally you and all other Muslims... blah blah blah

Thats right Soren - if all else fails, fall back on the irrational muslim meme. Never failed you before right?

The thing is, this topic of Palestinian rights is not primarily being pushed by the muslim community - its westerners, including prominent jews like Noam Chomsky and Uri Avnery. We get a very skewed perspective here in Australia - because Australia is one of the only countries on earth that blindly follows the US policy on Israel - and both major political parties actively stifle debate on the subject.

Go to Europe, and the sort of views I am putting forward are far more mainstream, and criticism of Israel is openly and rationally discussed.

This is not a muslim vs jew issue.

Yes Soren, go to Europe, where 'mainstream' moslems are eminently rational in their criticism of Israel and non-moslem entities and jurisdictions. Tongue

IMAGE...

You infidels want world peace ?
Then you must give us moslems everything which we demand!!

And you MUST NOT turn around the boats!!
We moslems forbid you, from preventing our brothers in faith, from coming to your country in boats!!
You must continue to accept moslems, coming to your land.
Because more ISLAM and more moslems, are good for you, and for your nation.
Honest!

IMAGE...

God bless Hitler?

IMAGE...

The real holocaust is coming?

IMAGE...

London, mainstream moslem street protests.
'Demonstrating' just how rational and 'peaceful' mainstream moslems really are.

THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

Do you still remember what the ISLAMIC scholar said ???

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

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« Last Edit: Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:52am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #148 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:26am

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:18am:

Do you still remember what the ISLAMIC scholar said ???

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

gandalf,

Has the worldwide 'mainstream' moslem community EVER condemned the words and urgings of Sayyid Qutb ?

When did this occur ?

Link ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #149 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:52am

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 2:11am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 12:34am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:03pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:55pm:

The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians.

The 'Palestinians' have a homeland.

And, so do the Jewish people.

Yadda, serious question: what are your feelings of the Palestinian christian population who have been the caretakers of christendom's most holy sites for hundreds of years - many of whom have been forced to flee because of the Israeli occupation. Are they just intruders who should get on their bike back to Jordan?

As to this slogan of yours, technically I, and most Australians are ethnically British. Should we all pack up and ship back to the UK?

My view is that I am every bit as "native" as the blackest Aboriginal - because both of us were born here. Likewise, the Palestinian population that was uprooted in 1948 was native in the sense that most of them had been born there, and could claim heritage to that land.

And what does "ethnically Jordanian" even mean? Jordan wasn't even created until 1922 - and it was an entirely artificial construct, created for British imperialist purposes. Is there even any such thing as "ethnically jordan"?? Linguistically, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Palestinian arabs are basically identical. There may not even be such a thing as a "Palestinian" ethnicity - but there most certainly was such a thing as Palestinian homes, farms and property that had existed for generations before their owners were forced to abandon them to make way for the creation of the jewish state. Dismissing these owners as "ethnically Jordanian" doesn't make up for the loss these people have suffered.

You’re asking Y these questions, G?

This is a soul who literally believes Leviticus is modern history.

K,

Why do you fear/hate Leviticus so much ?

Have you, done anything wrong ?

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Those Torah laws were/are only applicable for a people who were/are in-covenant with their God.

The outer heathen nations, and heathens [like yourself K], had their own laws. Grin

....LOL, as if!!!

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

.....who could Jesus be talking about, K ?

Not sure, Y. Who wrote the Book of Revelation?

Paul is hardly an expert on international law, eh?

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