Australian Politics Forum - The Evolution of Islam

Soren

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #30 - Jun 24^th, 2013 at 4:12pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2013 at 10:04am:

Soren wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2013 at 5:26pm:

And yet, in all its 1400 year history, no-one ever dared to suggest that mebbe it could b organised into the order in which it was received by Mohamed.
Why is that? because it is regarded as untouchable, unchangeable - even though very literate Muslim knows that it is a jumble.

This might be of interest to you

The Quran and its written form (Mushaf) is not the same. It was compiled into a book a long time after it was revealed.

So all the rioting over the accidental maltreatment of the printed paper form of the ushaf is mere commodity fetishim, the idolatrous worshipping of a mere paper object, industrially produced and bought and sold?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2013 at 10:04am:

Quote:

Another contradiction. And you do not have the luxury of the Jews and Christians to say it's all to be taken symbolically, metaphorically, hermeneutically because islam is not abut what you think (doxa) but what you do (praxis). It is a completely performative religion. It's all 'don't think, do it our way' (or we'll cut you).

There are plenty of metaphors in the Quran - that verse you quoted earlier about the sun setting in the mud for example.

If this is your case for why it should be considered a hoax, then you disappoint.

The metaphors matter not one bit because what you think matters not one bit. What you do - performance - is all that matters in Islam.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #31 - Jun 24^th, 2013 at 5:40pm

Soren wrote on Jun 24^th, 2013 at 4:12pm:

So all the rioting over the accidental maltreatment of the printed paper form of the ushaf is mere commodity fetishim, the idolatrous worshipping of a mere paper object, industrially produced and bought and sold?

Maybe you should ask the people who were rioting over that. It certainly wasn't me.

Most likely though its resentment over the perceived lack of respect for islam. A bit like the horror some Americans show for the burning of the American flag is not exactly fetishism over a coloured piece of cloth.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49509 At my desk.	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #32 - Jun 24^th, 2013 at 7:23pm I've witnessed a flag burning in the US. Other than singed eyebrows, no-one got hurt. People were bemused more than anything. It is kind of ironic that their absurd demands for respect are a big part of the reason people disrespect Islam so much. I think exposure therapy is the only cure.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #33 - Jun 24^th, 2013 at 9:41pm

freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2013 at 7:23pm:

I've witnessed a flag burning in the US. Other than singed eyebrows, no-one got hurt. People were bemused more than anything.

Depends where you are, and who is watching it I guess. As I recall there wasn't much bemusement amongst many Americans when CNN broadcast images of Pakistani protestors burning flags right after 9/11

freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2013 at 7:23pm:

It is kind of ironic that their absurd demands for respect are a big part of the reason people disrespect Islam so much. I think exposure therapy is the only cure.

'Absurd' is to watch as muslim nations are systematically bombed and invaded and western bases set up and corrupt client regimes propped up - and then stand up and say "gee, aren't they being unreasonable being pissed off about this?"

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #34 - Jun 25^th, 2013 at 11:35am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 24^th, 2013 at 9:41pm:

'Absurd' is to watch as muslim nations are systematically bombed and invaded and western bases set up and corrupt client regimes propped up - and then stand up and say "gee, aren't they being unreasonable being pissed off about this?"

the same Muslim nations who bomb and invade other countries?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #35 - Jun 25^th, 2013 at 12:11pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 11:35am:

the same Muslim nations who bomb and invade other countries?

Such as?

Usually when a muslim nation invades another nation, its done with the blessing and backing of the US - because they are client regimes. But don't get the regimes confused with the stateless islamists and terrorists - who hate the muslim client regimes even more than the west.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #36 - Jun 25^th, 2013 at 12:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 12:11pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 11:35am:

the same Muslim nations who bomb and invade other countries?

Such as?

Usually when a muslim nation invades another nation, its done with the blessing and backing of the US - because they are client regimes. But don't get the regimes confused with the stateless islamists and terrorists - who hate the muslim client regimes even more than the west.

Jordan
Syria
Egypt

On several occasions in the 20. century and still exist in a state of war from Syria.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #37 - Jun 25^th, 2013 at 1:13pm right avron but any examples less than 40 years ago?
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freediver

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #38 - Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm

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Depends where you are, and who is watching it I guess. As I recall there wasn't much bemusement amongst many Americans when CNN broadcast images of Pakistani protestors burning flags right after 9/11

I suspect they were upset about something other than the flag burning. They could have clapped their hands and it would have had the same effect, except perhaps in terms of clarity of the message.

Quote:

'Absurd' is to watch as muslim nations are systematically bombed and invaded and western bases set up and corrupt client regimes propped up - and then stand up and say "gee, aren't they being unreasonable being pissed off about this?"

When we are trying to set up a functioning democracy, then yes, in my opinion they are being unreasonable about it.

Quote:

right avron but any examples less than 40 years ago?

Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #39 - Jun 25^th, 2013 at 10:51pm

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

I suspect they were upset about something other than the flag burning

Exactly.

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

When we are trying to set up a functioning democracy

please.

Does "trying" include propping up a known election rigger?

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades?

Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #40 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 9:54am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 10:51pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades?

Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan.

Yet again, in conversation with a moslem ideologue, we see the moslem ['default', idealogical] position on 'Israel' being exposed;

That, Israel is NOT a sovereign nation - and it never will be.

Israel is occupied MOSLEM land, that must be reacquired, by moslems, using any means.

And that determination [in the heart of moslems] towards Israel, will NEVER, EVER, change.

Dictionary;
ideologue = = a dogmatic or uncompromising adherent of an ideology.i

IMAGE

THE TRUTH;
Even though ISRAEL, is the ancient and the only homeland of the Jewish people....

.....the ISLAMISTS throughout the region have declared time and time again, that there is not enough room in the Middle East for a non-moslem entity.

ISLAM and moslems have control of the vast majority of all of the land in the Middle East, but ISLAM refuses to allow any sovereign, non-moslem entity, to exist along side them there.

And all of the conflicts [throughout the region] are being fuelled by moslem religious bigotry, caused by the adherents of ISLAM.

Where those moslems are 'righteously' murdering others [moslems and non-moslems] who do not believe as they believe.

ISLAM teaches moslems, that moslems must seek to be dominant.

ISLAM obligates every moslem to work, to bring about moslem lordship over others [the infidels].

So that moslems can [forcefully] impose ISLAM upon all peoples.

Moslems pretend tolerance of other people, and other cultures - while they have no power to do anything else.

But moslems cannot hide the truth that, all moslems ARE religious bigots.

For proof, just look at the political circumstances, in all of those places where moslems have political authority.

"If you want to know a man's character, give him power."

Abraham Lincoln

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #41 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 11:11am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 10:51pm:

Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan.

The wonder of the western media descriptions over decades.

"Occupation"

"Colluding with Israelis"

That is funny. I imagine the Jordanian patrols that fired at us in the disputed zone didnt receive the memorandum that they are our friends?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #42 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 1:09pm Umm.. so you two are suggesting there is no occupation of the West Bank? How exactly does that work?
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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #43 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:06pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 10:51pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades?

Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan.

Yet again, in conversation with a moslem ideologue, we see the moslem ['default', idealogical] position on 'Israel' being exposed;

That, Israel is NOT a sovereign nation - and it never will be.

Israel is occupied MOSLEM land, that must be reacquired, by moslems, using any means.

And that determination [in the heart of moslems] towards Israel, will NEVER, EVER, change.

Dictionary;
ideologue = = a dogmatic or uncompromising adherent of an ideology.

You might need to help me with this one, Y. How is the act of fighting to get back land and property seized by the Israelis in 1967 dogmatic and uncompromising?

Do you include the UN in your assessment?

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #44 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:07pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 10:51pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades?

Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan.

Yet again, in conversation with a moslem ideologue, we see the moslem ['default', idealogical] position on 'Israel' being exposed;

That, Israel is NOT a sovereign nation - and it never will be.

Israel is occupied MOSLEM land, that must be reacquired, by moslems, using any means.

And that determination [in the heart of moslems] towards Israel, will NEVER, EVER, change.

Dictionary;
ideologue = = a dogmatic or uncompromising adherent of an ideology.

You might need to help me with this one, Y. How is the act of fighting to get back land and property seized by the Israelis in 1967 dogmatic and uncompromising?

Do you include the UN in your assessment?

tell me how this land was taken.
who has attacked who.

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