Australian Politics Forum - The Evolution of Islam

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #45 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:33pm Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:07pm: tell me how this land was taken. who has attacked who. Um.. Israel attacked Jordan, Syria and Egypt in 1967 - and gained control of the WB and Gaza. This must be a trick question right?
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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #46 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:44pm No. 100,000 soldiers in the Sinai is a declaration of war and intention to strike Israel. We said to Egypt if there is soldiers in the Sinai then it is war. Yet they did so.
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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #47 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:46pm i like to think my knowledge here is strong. We study our history intensely in our schools as students so we know 1967 very well thank you. I am happy to teach Aussies this.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96767	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #48 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:54pm Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:46pm: i like to think my knowledge here is strong. We study our history intensely in our schools as students so we know 1967 very well thank you. I am happy to teach Aussies this. So you're happy to hand back Jerusalem?
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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #49 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:58pm

You know who has handed most land to Palestinians?

Jordan? No - Until 1980 they demand all the Samaria and West bank of the Jordan river
Egypt? No - they claimed Gaza
Syria? No

These countries give their palestinians 'brothers' nothing.

All their land comes from the goodwill of Israel.

Jerusalem? No, this is not a disputed territory. There is no discussion to be said on Jerusalem.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #50 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 3:07pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:44pm:

100,000 soldiers in the Sinai is a declaration of war and intention to strike Israel.

We said to Egypt if there is soldiers in the Sinai then it is war. Yet they did so.

you asked who attacked who - Israel attacked the arabs. not even Israel denied that. You may call it a pre-emptive attack, but it was still an attack.

Then defense minister Moshe Dayan on the conquest of the Golan Heights:

Quote:

General Dayan died in 1981. But in conversations with a young reporter five years earlier, he said he regretted not having stuck to his initial opposition to storming the Golan Heights. There really was no pressing reason to do so, he said, because many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland.

[...]

Quote:

"I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/11/world/general-s-words-shed-a-new-light-on-the-...

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:46pm:

i like to think my knowledge here is strong. We study our history intensely in our schools as students so we know 1967 very well thank you.

Yes I'm sure you do. I'll give the teaching of Israeli history in Israeli schools about as much credibility as the history taught in Palestinian schools.

Israel tells schools not to teach nakba:

Let me guess, Benny Morris is not a textbook used on the nakba?

Quote:

In his first The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947—1949 (1988), Morris argues that the 700,000 Palestinians who fled their homes in 1947 left mostly due to Israeli military attacks; fear of impending attacks; and expulsions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #51 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 3:26pm

You quote a newspaper under control in a country that does not even allow me to enter it because of the color of my passport.

This is not going to have biased opinion you think?

Israeli schools are amongst best in the world.
My family graduate from Israeli schools and gain access to American university places as a result.

We teach correct history. Not pro palestinian crying stories.

You want to know how they are?

How about women pretending to be hurt in the gravel of paths with intention to draw out our unit to help them to be in the line of sights of snipers from their camps?
Or young children put forward to need our help so we come out of the sentry point to see molotov cocktails throwed to us and large stones thrown at our vehicles.

Please dont give me these bullshit palestinian stories.

I know much better because i have been one in this.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #52 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 4:16pm

LOL - I didn't give you any Palestinian stories. Not one.

I think you have demonstrated quite well how incapable you are of discussing this rationally.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 3:26pm:

ou quote a newspaper under control in a country that does not even allow me to enter it because of the color of my passport.

The US?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #53 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 4:24pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 3:26pm:

You quote a newspaper under control in a country that does not even allow me to enter it because of the color of my passport.

This is not going to have biased opinion you think?

That's right, Avram. The New York Times has always been against the state of Israel.

I'm sure Israel teaches correct history. Quite unbiased.

Most rational, old chap. You do know the old boy, don't you? No need for introductions.

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #54 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 4:47pm thenational.ae is a Emirates newspaper and they do not allow us to come.
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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #55 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 4:51pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

LOL - I didn't give you any Palestinian stories. Not one.

I think you have demonstrated quite well how incapable you are of discussing this rationally.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 3:26pm:

ou quote a newspaper under control in a country that does not even allow me to enter it because of the color of my passport.

The US?

Yes you did - you give me a newspaper of stories of their movements in the region.

The Palestinians.

Everyone has movements in that time too. Let me tell you of a holocaust of 6 million people forcing movements of people.
How about they study that in their schools?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #56 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 5:34pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 4:51pm:

How about they study that in their schools?

You're not getting any argument from me there - I already said the Palestinian education system is biased and untrustworthy. But I'm afraid your side can't claim the moral high ground there - your history teachers are told not to mention anything about the nakba - it was all a ruse - Palestinians merely made a strategic retreat to make way for the invading arab hordes. Its a fairy tale that no reputable historian takes seriously - not even the rabid zionist Benny Morris.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 4:51pm:

Yes you did - you give me a newspaper of stories of their movements in the region.

The Palestinians.

You seem to be mistaken. The article I gave you was about Israeli and Syrian tensions over the Golan Heights. And it was from the New York Times - I have no idea what this fictional article from this UAE paper is you are talking about.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #57 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 9:28pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 10:51pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades?

Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan.

Yet again, in conversation with a moslem ideologue, we see the moslem ['default', idealogical] position on 'Israel' being exposed;

That, Israel is NOT a sovereign nation - and it never will be.

Israel is occupied MOSLEM land, that must be reacquired, by moslems, using any means.

And that determination [in the heart of moslems] towards Israel, will NEVER, EVER, change.

Dictionary;
ideologue = = a dogmatic or uncompromising adherent of an ideology.

You might need to help me with this one, Y. How is the act of fighting to get back land and property seized by the Israelis in 1967 dogmatic and uncompromising?

Do you include the UN in your assessment?

What about this reasoning K ????......

islam and jews

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1299665041/39#39
Quote:

......international law allows nations who are attacked [e.g. the state of Israel, 1948], to occupy and annex land that was previously recognised as being a part of another state [e.g. Arab states, 1948] because of aggression and attacks, upon a neighbouring state [Israel, 1948].

And international laws does not prohibit a state which was attacked [e.g. the state of Israel, 1948], from occupying and annexing the lands of an aggressor, so as to prevent further attacks.

......"ISRAEL AND INTERNATIONAL LAW....Israel’s presence in all these areas pending negotiation of new borders is entirely lawful, since Israel entered them lawfully in self-defence. International law forbids acquisition by unlawful force, but not where, as in the case of Israel’s self-defence in 1967, the entry on the territory was lawful. It does not so forbid it,....for the effect of such prohibition would be to guarantee to all potential aggressors that, even if their aggression failed, all territory lost in the attempt would be automatically returned to them. Such a rule would be absurd to the point of lunacy. There is no such rule..."
http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1528

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #58 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 9:30pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 10:51pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades?

Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan.

Yet again, in conversation with a moslem ideologue, we see the moslem ['default', idealogical] position on 'Israel' being exposed;

That, Israel is NOT a sovereign nation - and it never will be.

Israel is occupied MOSLEM land, that must be reacquired, by moslems, using any means.

And that determination [in the heart of moslems] towards Israel, will NEVER, EVER, change.

Dictionary;
ideologue = = a dogmatic or uncompromising adherent of an ideology.

You might need to help me with this one, Y. How is the act of fighting to get back land and property seized by the Israelis in 1967 dogmatic and uncompromising?

Do you include the UN in your assessment?

AND, this......

Israel's supporters better wake up!
By Melanie Phillips

Quote:

...In Britain, the universities, the established church, the theatrical and publishing worlds, the voluntary sector, significant elements within the Foreign Office, members of Parliament across the political spectrum, as well as the media have overwhelmingly signed up to the demonization and delegitimization of Israel.

The scale of this phenomenon is nothing short of a multi-layered civilizational crisis.

The west is experiencing a total inversion of truth evidence and reason. A society's thinking class has overwhelmingly subscribed to an immoral, patently false and in many cases demonstrably absurd account of the Middle East, past and present, which it has uncritically absorbed and assumes to be true.

In routine, everyday discourse history is turned on its head; logic is suspended; and an entirely false narrative of the conflict is now widely accepted as unchallengeable fact, from which fundamental error has been spun a global web of potentially catastrophic false conclusions.

This has led to a kind of dialogue of the demented in which rational discussion is simply not possible because there is no shared understanding of the meaning of language. So victim and victimizer, truth and lies, justice and injustice turn into their precise opposite.

...Because Islam is considered perfect, its adherents can never do wrong. All their aggression is therefore represented as self-defense, while western/Israeli self-defense is said to be aggression.

So in this Orwellian universe the enslavement of Muslim women is said to represent their liberation; democracy is a means of enslavement from which the west must be freed; and the murder of Israelis is the purest form of justice.

Furthermore, this is overlaid by the phenomenon of 'psychological projection' in which the Islamic world not only denies its own misdeeds but ascribes them instead to its victims.

...What is remarkable is that instead of treating this as a pathological deformity of thinking, the western progressive intelligentsia has largely embraced it as rational and true. And to a large extent this is because that same western intelligentsia has itself supplanted rationality by ideology -- or the dogma of a particular idea.

...In short, therefore, the west cannot defend itself against the Islamic jihad because it can't itself even think straight any more.

But this lethal muddle in the minds of the intelligentsia must be viewed in turn in the context of a global diplomatic process which itself embodies upside-down thinking, which fans the flames of bigotry and defeatism -- and in which Israel itself has been tragically, and suicidally, complicit.

It cannot be stressed enough that the reason why those promoting genocidal bigotry are winning is that the western world has not sought to defeat them but instead has appeased them from the very start.

...The single greatest reason for the endless continuation of the Middle East impasse is that Britain, Europe and America have continuously rewarded the aggressor and either attacked the victim or left it twisting in the wind.

That's what needs to be said by Israel and its defenders. But Israel and its defenders themselves have been crippled or cowed by the false analysis of the enemy's narrative.

Even many of Israel's friends spout the demonstrably absurd proposition that a Palestine state would solve the problem, that the impediment to a Palestine state is the 'settlers', but that Israel is not taking action to remove the 'settlers' -- and so therefore they too inescapably agree that Israel is the problem.

Israel and its defenders have been fighting on the wrong battleground: the one that has been chosen by its enemies. The Arabs brilliantly reconfigured the Arab war of extermination against Israel as the oppression by Israel of the Palestinians.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0111/phillips011011.php3?printer_friendly

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96767	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #59 - Jun 26^th, 2013 at 9:54pm That’s not very helpful, Y. You didn’t answer the question.
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