Australian Politics Forum - The Evolution of Islam

polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #75 - Jun 27^th, 2013 at 9:20pm

Soren wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 6:47pm:

The Palestinans could have had it ALL if they hadn't embarked on a relentless terror campaign to drive out the Jews completely. This is what you get for smacking with the Jews after the holocaust - you are hemmed in and put on a leash.
Should have been content with all of Jordan plus the West Bank and Gaza. But no.
The Pallos and the Muslims generally thought that the holocaust would not change the Jews and that 'never again' was just an empty slogan. Major miscalculation.

Interesting then that the Isreali founding fathers seemed not to get that memo Soren. Theodore Hertzl and Ben-Gurion were boasting how they were going to ethnically cleanse the entire area of Palestine long before any terror was committed by the arabs.

Outwardly, Ben-Gurion was supporting the Peel Commission's two state plan, but privately, he was explaining how this was merely a first step to claiming all of Palestine:

Quote:

My assumption (which is why I am a fervent proponent of a state, even though it is now linked to partition) is that a Jewish state on only part of the land is not the end but the beginning.

Quote:

When we acquire one thousand or 10,000 dunams, we feel elated. It does not hurt our feelings that by this acquisition we are not in possession of the whole land. This is because this increase in possession is of consequence not only in itself, but because through it we increase our strength, and every increase in strength helps in the possession of the land as a whole. The establishment of a state, even if only on a portion of the land, is the maximal reinforcement of our strength at the present time and a powerful boost to our historical endeavors to liberate the entire country.

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/we-must-expel-arabs-and-take-their-place-institute...

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #76 - Jun 27^th, 2013 at 9:48pm All of Palestine - does that include Jordan? Where IS Palestine?? I suspect it is everywhere that Jews are. 'Palestine' is a shiboleth (!) for Jewish presence anywhere between Morocco and Pakistan.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #77 - Jun 27^th, 2013 at 11:26pm

Soren wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 9:48pm:

All of Palestine - does that include Jordan?

Where IS Palestine??

Here is Ben-Gurion's description of the borders Israel should strive for:

Quote:

"to the north, the Litani river [in southern Lebanon], to the northeast, the Wadi 'Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into Sinai at least up to Wadi al-'Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan"

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story638.html

And here is a map of claimed jewish land presented by the World Zionist Organisation in 1918:

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #78 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:11am And what were the final Israeli borders that the Jews actually accepted in 1948 (but the Arabs rejected and went to war against Israel instead)??
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shockresist

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #79 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:25am

The jews and Zionists in israeal are a terrorist racist entitiy who are invading and taking over other people lands and who hate all non jews, muslims, arabs, christians, black Africans etc.

1. "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

2."We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves."

Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

3. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours."

Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

4. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."

Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

5."We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, what is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"

Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs,
published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

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shockresist

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #80 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:30am

I hate when the jews complain about the trauma and terror in the holocoust, but then turn that around and do it on the palestinians.

A british MP, David Ward recently said this

"Having visited Auschwitz twice - once with my family and once with local schools - I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza."

Israel is in the top 3 countries most hated and a report given by the european union claims israel is the greatest threat to world peace.

Have a look at what jews think about non-jews,

“The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the the dog more than the non-Jew.”

Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30

“The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts.”

Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

“The souls of non-Jews come from impure sprits and are called pigs.”

Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b

“It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile.”

Sepher ikkarim III c 25

“It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah.”

Coschen hamischpat 425 Hagah 425. 5

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #81 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:43am

Soren, the jews "accepted" the partition plan because it was a grossly unfair deal to the arabs: granting 56% of the land to a population that at that stage consisted only around 35% of the population - and legally owned a mere 7% of the land. Within the jewish allocated area, 45% of the population was non-jewish.

The other reason they accepted it is because, as made clear by Ben-Gurion and others, the jews had no intention of being content with a mere 55% of the land. They wanted it all, and made it perfectly clear that they were going to drive out the arabs from the entire area one way or another, and claim it all for themselves. As Ben-Gurion stated in that letter to his son - the acceptance of partition was merely a stepping stone to their real goal of claiming it all for themselves.

This second factor, IMO, is the real reason for Arab anxiety - which led to their hostility.

Just to put it into proper context - rewind two decades to 1920, where the British foreign office observed:

Quote:

The Zionist declaration of our Government has been followed by a very considerable immigration of Jews. One of the difficulties of the situation arises from the fact that the Zionists have taken full advantage - and are disposed to take even fuller advantage - of the opportunity which was then offered to them. You have only to read, as probably most of us do, their periodical 'Palestine', and, indeed, their pronouncements in the papers, to see that their programme is expanding from day to day. They now talk about a Jewish State. The Arab portion of the population is well-nigh forgotten and is to be ignored. They not only claim the boundaries of the old Palestine, but they claim to spread across the Jordan into the rich countries lying to the east, and, indeed, there seems to be very small limit to the aspirations which they now form. The Zionist programme, and the energy with which it is being carried out, have not unnaturally had the consequence of arousing the keen suspicions of the Arabs

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #82 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:57am you have a very anti-jewish mind on the history of the region.
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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #83 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 12:02pm

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

And what were the final Israeli borders that the Jews actually accepted in 1948 (but the Arabs rejected and went to war against Israel instead)??

The borders have changed a couple of the times in the 20. century.

Each time because of Arab aggression. So far no member of my family has not been in war, this is the situation we face.

My grandfather 1948
my father and uncles 1967
my brothers Operation defensive shield
Me - Operation Cast Lead

Show how the Arabs force us to defend ourselves every generation?

You people in this wonderful peaceful country have no idea how it is to defend every day your land and people from attack.

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Soren

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #84 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 12:12pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:43am:

Soren, the jews "accepted" the partition plan because it was a grossly unfair deal to the arabs: granting 56% of the land to a population that at that stage consisted only around 35% of the population - and legally owned a mere 7% of the land. Within the jewish allocated area, 45% of the population was non-jewish.

The other reason they accepted it is because, as made clear by Ben-Gurion and others, the jews had no intention of being content with a mere 55% of the land. They wanted it all, and made it perfectly clear that they were going to drive out the arabs from the entire area one way or another, and claim it all for themselves. As Ben-Gurion stated in that letter to his son - the acceptance of partition was merely a stepping stone to their real goal of claiming it all for themselves.

This second factor, IMO, is the real reason for Arab anxiety - which led to their hostility.

Just to put it into proper context - rewind two decades to 1920, where the British foreign office observed:

Quote:

The Zionist declaration of our Government has been followed by a very considerable immigration of Jews. One of the difficulties of the situation arises from the fact that the Zionists have taken full advantage - and are disposed to take even fuller advantage - of the opportunity which was then offered to them. You have only to read, as probably most of us do, their periodical 'Palestine', and, indeed, their pronouncements in the papers, to see that their programme is expanding from day to day. They now talk about a Jewish State. The Arab portion of the population is well-nigh forgotten and is to be ignored. They not only claim the boundaries of the old Palestine, but they claim to spread across the Jordan into the rich countries lying to the east, and, indeed, there seems to be very small limit to the aspirations which they now form. The Zionist programme, and the energy with which it is being carried out, have not unnaturally had the consequence of arousing the keen suspicions of the Arabs

This is conjecture and ignores a crucial point. The UN approved the partition in 1947 and subsequent to 1948, most UN members have recognised Israel.

Had the Arabs recognised it also as it was in 1948, expansion would have been impossible as there would have been no war.

If you look at Alsace and Lorraine or East Prussia or the Austro-Hungarian Empire or Sudetenland or any number of border shifts and consequent population shifts in the last 100 years you will see that the Arab opposition to a Jewish state is unique. And it doesn't take much effort to see that the opposition is fundamentally religio-political (two things for non-Muslims but one for Muslims).

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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #85 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 1:37pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 12:02pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

And what were the final Israeli borders that the Jews actually accepted in 1948 (but the Arabs rejected and went to war against Israel instead)??

The borders have changed a couple of the times in the 20. century.

Each time because of Arab aggression. So far no member of my family has not been in war, this is the situation we face.

My grandfather 1948
my father and uncles 1967
my brothers Operation defensive shield
Me - Operation Cast Lead

Show how the Arabs force us to defend ourselves every generation?

You people in this wonderful peaceful country have no idea how it is to defend every day your land and people from attack.

You're right. We don't. But with each of those "defensive operations" (excluding the last two) Israel has seized and occupied the sovereign territory of other states - illegally under international law and UN resolution.

This was done by Saddam to Kuwait in the first Gulf War. The result? You know the result.

Arab aggression or not, Israel doesn't play by the rules. By any definition, this makes Israel a rogue state.

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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #86 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 1:55pm

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 12:12pm:

If you look at Alsace and Lorraine or East Prussia or the Austro-Hungarian Empire or Sudetenland or any number of border shifts and consequent population shifts in the last 100 years you will see that the Arab opposition to a Jewish state is unique.

And in each of those border shifts, the major powers created buffer states to slow military deployment and curtail the threat of invasion. This wasn't possible in the Middle East after WWII and decolonization.

Hence, you get a country like Israel in the Six Day War setting out in tanks to blow up everything in its path and claiming as much territory as it could cover.

And without buffer states, these kinds of offensive wars have their own karma, and one particular to Israel:

Quote:

The success of the campaign must have surprised the Israelis. However, it also gave them a major problem that was to prove a major problem for the Israeli government for decades. By capturing the Sinai, the Golan Heights and the West Bank of the Jordan River, the Israelis had captured for themselves areas of great strategic value. However, the West Bank also contained over 600,000 Arabs who now came under Israeli administration. Their plight led many young Arabs into joining the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO), a group that the Israelis deemed a terrorist organisation. Israeli domestic policies became a lot more complicated after the military successes of June 1967.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/six_day_war_1967.htm

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #87 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 2:36pm

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 12:12pm:

Had the Arabs recognised it also as it was in 1948, expansion would have been impossible as there would have been no war.

In case you haven't noticed, Israel is not exactly averse to snubbing international opinion in order to achieve its goals. And as we are seeing now with the (illegal) settlement expansions - aka 'creating facts on the ground' - Israel doesn't always need war to annex the territory they desire. With the zionists track record - observed by Lord Curzon, and betrayed by the musings of Ben-Gurion, Hertzl and many others, you'd be naive to the extreme to think that had the partition plan been agreed on by both sides, the zionists would have been content with the Palestinians building there own state on the very land the zionists had always claimed as there own.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:57am:

you have a very anti-jewish mind on the history of the region.

Well yes you would say that. Whenever compelling evidence is presented to you that dents your rose-tinted view of Israeli history, you've nothing left but to pull out the anti-semitism card.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 12:02pm:

Show how the Arabs force us to defend ourselves every generation?

You are in your element when you can frame this in military-self-defence terms. But the self-defence argument falls flat when looking at the real issues shaping the Palestinian question today - the expansion of the settlements, the unfair allocation of water, and the day-to-day administration of the west bank that is designed to make any sort of long-term viability for Palestinian urban centres (eg building restrictions, discontiguity of areas A and B) simply impossible. These things not only have zero to do with defending Israeli citizens, they undeniably put Israelis in greater danger.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #88 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:28pm One of my family most treasured possessions is a photograph of my father and my uncle sitting on a tank in the Sinai in 1967 holding between them the Star of David, It says everything this photo. If you want to be a aggressor you picked the wrong people to fight Egypt.
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shockresist

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #89 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:51pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:28pm:

One of my family most treasured possessions is a photograph of my father and my uncle sitting on a tank in the Sinai in 1967 holding between them the Star of David,

It says everything this photo.

If you want to be a aggressor you picked the wrong people to fight Egypt.

Of course they were sitting on a tank, they are agrressors and go around stealing other people lands.

Jews went around and killed previous prophets, I feel sorry for the Palestinians who have to live under jewish rule.

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