Australian Politics Forum - The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...

greggerypeccary

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #105 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:45pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:23pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:22pm:

I see Greggary. A blog spot post. Must be true then because it someones opinion. Roll Eyes

Try again.

LOL

Singapore moved away from a due process model to a crime control model in the '70s. This isn't "someone's opinion": it's a fact.

Grin

Here, this will help you understand the difference:

http://www.ask.com/question/crime-control-model-v-due-process

Oh ian, nobody will ever take this away from you:

You are a very funny fellow. Grin

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Peter Freedman

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #106 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:45pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

I have noticed that with rare exception, most supporters of the Death Penalty give short shrift or in come cases, total disregard for the concept of GUILT. Reasonable doubt seems okay. The death penalty must always attract the very highest standard of evidence - much higher than the average 'absence of reasonable doubt' but rather absence of ANY doubt. But the experience of all countries that apply the DP is that they use it not sparingly but rather often and the number of post-execution proofs of innocence are disturbingly high. But supporters of the DP seem almost to a man, totally disinterested in the problem of judicial failings or police corruption. As long as someone is killed, their lust is sated... for a while.

Again with rare exception, vocal supporters of the DP tend to be frustrated or violent people seeking to see others die - even if not by their own hand (although a disturbing number offer to do so!). The concept of guilt - absolute guilt - rarely gets even thought about.

ahhh, emotional rhetoric aimed at portraying DP supprters as rabid blood lusters. what nonsense, most supporters of the DP incluidng myself simply recognise that there are those amongst us who appear human but are not and should be put down. And under our legal system if there is reasonable doubt, the accused is found innocent, not gulity. I wonder where you people get these bizarre ideas from. It is extraordinarly rare for an innocent person to be found guilty under our system, so rare that there hasnt been a case of wrongful imprisonment for decades. Now with the advent of DNA science it is almost impossible for it to happen.

ian, don't be absurd. You have no idea how many innocent people are sitting in prison, no-one does.

DNA science isn't infallible and many cases are decided without it.

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God grant me the patience to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and, above all, the wisdom to tell the difference.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 137490 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #107 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:47pm Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:45pm: ian, don't be absurd. You're kidding, right?
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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #108 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:49pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:01pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 3:51pm:

Nice try, but these sentences of ... "For the term of your natural life" have a history of being rescinded and revoked in later years.

You forgot to provide some evidence.

Hello? Herbert?

Have you forgotten something?

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #109 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:56pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:12pm:

It is extraordinarly rare for an innocent person to be found guilty under our system, so rare that there hasnt been a case of wrongful imprisonment for decades. Now with the advent of DNA science it is almost impossible for it to happen.

Oh ian, my dear boy.

I'm starting to think you're putting on an act now.

Nobody could be as naive as you are pretending to be.

http://www.innocenceprojectwa.org.au/

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #110 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:19pm

Due process simply means that the state must respect all the legal rights available to a person under the law. There is no argument that Singapore does not do this. Your posts are becoimgn even more incoherent garbage Graggary. You simlpy should not be discussing any of this because you do not understand basic legal concepts.

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #111 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:20pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:45pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:23pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:22pm:

I see Greggary. A blog spot post. Must be true then because it someones opinion. Roll Eyes

Try again.

LOL

Singapore moved away from a due process model to a crime control model in the '70s. This isn't "someone's opinion": it's a fact.

Grin

Here, this will help you understand the difference:

http://www.ask.com/question/crime-control-model-v-due-process

Oh ian, nobody will ever take this away from you:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkhirlBIYh1qbvnui.jpg

You are a very funny fellow. Grin

nonsense, blog and opinion posts mean nothing.

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #112 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:24pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:56pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:12pm:

It is extraordinarly rare for an innocent person to be found guilty under our system, so rare that there hasnt been a case of wrongful imprisonment for decades. Now with the advent of DNA science it is almost impossible for it to happen.

Oh ian, my dear boy.

I'm starting to think you're putting on an act now.

Nobody could be as naive as you are pretending to be.

http://www.innocenceprojectwa.org.au/

Might pay you to read what you actually post, You have no idea what you are talking about. There is a huge difference betwqeen wrongful conviction and innocence, I suggest you learn it.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #113 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:24pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

I have noticed that with rare exception, most supporters of the Death Penalty give short shrift or in come cases, total disregard for the concept of GUILT. Reasonable doubt seems okay. The death penalty must always attract the very highest standard of evidence - much higher than the average 'absence of reasonable doubt' but rather absence of ANY doubt. But the experience of all countries that apply the DP is that they use it not sparingly but rather often and the number of post-execution proofs of innocence are disturbingly high. But supporters of the DP seem almost to a man, totally disinterested in the problem of judicial failings or police corruption. As long as someone is killed, their lust is sated... for a while.

Again with rare exception, vocal supporters of the DP tend to be frustrated or violent people seeking to see others die - even if not by their own hand (although a disturbing number offer to do so!). The concept of guilt - absolute guilt - rarely gets even thought about.

ahhh, emotional rhetoric aimed at portraying DP supprters as rabid blood lusters. what nonsense, most supporters of the DP incluidng myself simply recognise that there are those amongst us who appear human but are not and should be put down. And under our legal system if there is reasonable doubt, the accused is found innocent, not gulity. I wonder where you people get these bizarre ideas from. It is extraordinarly rare for an innocent person to be found guilty under our system, so rare that there hasnt been a case of wrongful imprisonment for decades. Now with the advent of DNA science it is almost impossible for it to happen.

i think you've been hiding under a rock. No less than 200 people on death row in the USA have had their convictions overturnd (ie found innocent) in just 13 years.

and in australia, wrong ful convictions happen all the time. Remember Vic a few yeas ago that convicted a man of rape despite having an airtight alibi on the basis of DNA evidence? oops! the dna system was found to be tainted.

And I repeat that by using terms such as 'put down' you ARE displaying bloodlust.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #114 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:25pm

Article 9 of the Constitution of Singapore

A cell of the Old Supreme Court Building lock-up. Article 9 of the Constitution guarantees the rights to life and personal liberty and other rights of arrested persons, but these rights are not absolute.
Article 9 of the Constitution of the Republic of Singapore, specifically Article 9(1), guarantees the right to life and the right to personal liberty. The Court of Appeal has called the right to life the most basic of human rights, but has yet to fully define the term in the Constitution. Contrary to the broad position taken in jurisdictions such as Malaysia and the United States, the High Court of Singapore has said that personal liberty only refers to freedom from unlawful incarceration or detention.

Article 9(1) states that persons may be deprived of life or personal liberty "in accordance with law". In Ong Ah Chuan v. Public Prosecutor (1980), an appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council from Singapore, it was held that the term law means more than just legislation validly enacted by Parliament, and includes fundamental rules of natural justice. Subsequently, in Yong Vui Kong v. Attorney-General (2011), the Court of Appeal held that such fundamental rules of natural justice embodied in the Constitution are the same in nature and function as common law rules of natural justice in administrative law, except that they operate at different levels of the legal order. A related decision, Yong Vui Kong v. Public Prosecutor (2010), apparently rejected the contention that Article 9(1) entitles courts to examine the substantive fairness of legislation, though it asserted a judicial discretion to reject bills of attainder and absurd or arbitrary legislation. In the same case, the Court of Appeal held that law in Article 9(1) does not include rules of customary international law.

Other subsections of Article 9 enshrine rights accorded to persons who have been arrested, namely, the right to apply to the High Court to challenge the legality of their detention, the right to be informed of the grounds of arrest, the right to counsel, and the right to be produced before a magistrate within 48 hours of arrest. These rights do not apply to enemy aliens or to persons arrested for contempt of Parliament. The Constitution also specifically exempts the Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Act (Cap. 67, 2000 Rev. Ed.), the Internal Security Act (Cap. 143, 1985 Rev. Ed.), and Part IV of the Misuse of Drugs Act (Cap. 185, 2008 Rev. Ed.) from having to comply with Article 9.

Like I said, there is no argument that Singapore does not allow due process.

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #115 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:28pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:24pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

I have noticed that with rare exception, most supporters of the Death Penalty give short shrift or in come cases, total disregard for the concept of GUILT. Reasonable doubt seems okay. The death penalty must always attract the very highest standard of evidence - much higher than the average 'absence of reasonable doubt' but rather absence of ANY doubt. But the experience of all countries that apply the DP is that they use it not sparingly but rather often and the number of post-execution proofs of innocence are disturbingly high. But supporters of the DP seem almost to a man, totally disinterested in the problem of judicial failings or police corruption. As long as someone is killed, their lust is sated... for a while.

Again with rare exception, vocal supporters of the DP tend to be frustrated or violent people seeking to see others die - even if not by their own hand (although a disturbing number offer to do so!). The concept of guilt - absolute guilt - rarely gets even thought about.

ahhh, emotional rhetoric aimed at portraying DP supprters as rabid blood lusters. what nonsense, most supporters of the DP incluidng myself simply recognise that there are those amongst us who appear human but are not and should be put down. And under our legal system if there is reasonable doubt, the accused is found innocent, not gulity. I wonder where you people get these bizarre ideas from. It is extraordinarly rare for an innocent person to be found guilty under our system, so rare that there hasnt been a case of wrongful imprisonment for decades. Now with the advent of DNA science it is almost impossible for it to happen.

i think you've been hiding under a rock. No less than 200 people on death row in the USA have had their convictions overturnd (ie found innocent) in just 13 years.

and in australia, wrong ful convictions happen all the time. Remember Vic a few yeas ago that convicted a man of rape despite having an airtight alibi on the basis of DNA evidence? oops! the dna system was found to be tainted.

And I repeat that by using terms such as 'put down' you ARE displaying bloodlust.

Im not talking about the US justice system Obviously their system has significant flaws. And Im talking about wrongful murder convictions, not other offences since we are talking about cases where the death penalty is involved.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #116 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:28pm

Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:40pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

I have noticed that with rare exception, most supporters of the Death Penalty give short shrift or in come cases, total disregard for the concept of GUILT. Reasonable doubt seems okay. The death penalty must always attract the very highest standard of evidence - much higher than the average 'absence of reasonable doubt' but rather absence of ANY doubt. But the experience of all countries that apply the DP is that they use it not sparingly but rather often and the number of post-execution proofs of innocence are disturbingly high. But supporters of the DP seem almost to a man, totally disinterested in the problem of judicial failings or police corruption. As long as someone is killed, their lust is sated... for a while.

Again with rare exception, vocal supporters of the DP tend to be frustrated or violent people seeking to see others die - even if not by their own hand (although a disturbing number offer to do so!). The concept of guilt - absolute guilt - rarely gets even thought about.

My Gawd, what have you done with the real longy, you fiend?

LOL... there is this funny thing Ive discovered about those that debate with passion and intelligence on apparently opposite sides. They tend to actually have similar opinions on many things and vary only on the edges or the process of getting there. Unfortunately, a lot of people on places like this are actually just plain stupid, ignorant and ill-informed.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #117 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:29pm Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:40pm: My Gawd, what have you done with the real longy, you fiend? He's having a long weekend. He'll be back.
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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #118 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:29pm again, I suggest you people learn the diufference between basic legal l concepts before commenting in this thread lest you end up looking like Greggary.
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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #119 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:31pm ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:28pm: Good point Herbert. Thank you, Ian. I believe you and I might be the only sane ones here.
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Poll
Question: Do you support the death penalty?
yes 7 (50.0%) no 6 (42.9%) not sure 1 (7.1%) Total votes: 14 « Created by: Bobby. on: Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:19pm »