Australian Politics Forum - The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...

longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #120 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:31pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:24pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:56pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:12pm:

It is extraordinarly rare for an innocent person to be found guilty under our system, so rare that there hasnt been a case of wrongful imprisonment for decades. Now with the advent of DNA science it is almost impossible for it to happen.

Oh ian, my dear boy.

I'm starting to think you're putting on an act now.

Nobody could be as naive as you are pretending to be.

http://www.innocenceprojectwa.org.au/

Might pay you to read what you actually post, You have no idea what you are talking about. There is a huge difference betwqeen wrongful conviction and innocence, I suggest you learn it.

as someone who cherishes the meanings of words, you are absolutely right. The error in your argument however is in assuming that they aren't the same thing in many cases. Mind you, your arguments have been to date been rather simplistic and lacking in any real-world information. And we haven't even moved onto moral grounds.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #121 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:35pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:24pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

I have noticed that with rare exception, most supporters of the Death Penalty give short shrift or in come cases, total disregard for the concept of GUILT. Reasonable doubt seems okay. The death penalty must always attract the very highest standard of evidence - much higher than the average 'absence of reasonable doubt' but rather absence of ANY doubt. But the experience of all countries that apply the DP is that they use it not sparingly but rather often and the number of post-execution proofs of innocence are disturbingly high. But supporters of the DP seem almost to a man, totally disinterested in the problem of judicial failings or police corruption. As long as someone is killed, their lust is sated... for a while.

Again with rare exception, vocal supporters of the DP tend to be frustrated or violent people seeking to see others die - even if not by their own hand (although a disturbing number offer to do so!). The concept of guilt - absolute guilt - rarely gets even thought about.

ahhh, emotional rhetoric aimed at portraying DP supprters as rabid blood lusters. what nonsense, most supporters of the DP incluidng myself simply recognise that there are those amongst us who appear human but are not and should be put down. And under our legal system if there is reasonable doubt, the accused is found innocent, not gulity. I wonder where you people get these bizarre ideas from. It is extraordinarly rare for an innocent person to be found guilty under our system, so rare that there hasnt been a case of wrongful imprisonment for decades. Now with the advent of DNA science it is almost impossible for it to happen.

i think you've been hiding under a rock. No less than 200 people on death row in the USA have had their convictions overturnd (ie found innocent) in just 13 years.

and in australia, wrong ful convictions happen all the time. Remember Vic a few yeas ago that convicted a man of rape despite having an airtight alibi on the basis of DNA evidence? oops! the dna system was found to be tainted.

And I repeat that by using terms such as 'put down' you ARE displaying bloodlust.

Im not talking about the US justice system Obviously their system has significant flaws. And Im talking about wrongful murder convictions, not other offences since we are talking about cases where the death penalty is involved.

so no wrongful murder convictions? History - ours included - is LITTERED with examples of wrongful convictions for murder. Lindy Chamberlain anyone??? etc etc etc

But I wil ask you this which of course you will no answer and no pro-DP ever does. "What is the acceptable rate of error in applying the DP that you would accept and still retain it?"

I look forward to your repeated ignoring of this question.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #122 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:36pm

As I stated, extremely rare and in cases where it might have attracted the death penalty were that still in force , decades ago. Most "wrongful convictions" do not mean the defendant was innocent but rather convicted wrongly on points of law. Huge difference between wrongful conviction and innocence. There are cases such as violent rape and homicide where the law does not get it wrong simply because DNA is such a crucial part of the evidence. It is possible to enforce the death oenalty in cases where guilt irs irrevocable, i.e decide not only by eye witness testimony but also cirumstantial and DNA evidence, We have recently had a cse in W.A. where the defenant was quite obviously guilty but found not guilty because of the way the police handled the cahin of evidence. It is much more common for this top happen rather than wrongful conviction to occur.

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« Last Edit: Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:42pm by ian »

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #123 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:38pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:29pm:

again, I suggest you people learn the diufference between basic legal l concepts before commenting in this thread lest you end up looking like Greggary.

Innocence is not a legal concept. And if you had half a brain you would know that. A court doesnt actually declare you to be innocent. it declares you not guilty beyond reasonable doubt which are quite different. While it is tru that in many cases if not most they are effectively the same thing, 'innocence' is NOT a legal status.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #124 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:39pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:36pm:

As I stated, extremely rare and in cases where it might have attracted the death penalty were that still in force , decades ago.

actually it is not 'extremely rare' at all. it is at best, 'uncommon'. But I look forward to you answering (or more likely, ignoring) my question before.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #125 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:43pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:38pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:29pm:

again, I suggest you people learn the diufference between basic legal l concepts before commenting in this thread lest you end up looking like Greggary.

Innocence is not a legal concept. And if you had half a brain you would know that. A court doesnt actually declare you to be innocent. it declares you not guilty beyond reasonable doubt which are quite different. While it is tru that in many cases if not most they are effectively the same thing, 'innocence' is NOT a legal status.

No kidding Einstein, I never stated it was.

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #126 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:44pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:39pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:36pm:

As I stated, extremely rare and in cases where it might have attracted the death penalty were that still in force , decades ago.

actually it is not 'extremely rare' at all. it is at best, 'uncommon'. But I look forward to you answering (or more likely, ignoring) my question before.

Look forward to your statistics then, show me the stats on wrongful conviction in murder cases in Australia.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #127 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:45pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:44pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:39pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:36pm:

As I stated, extremely rare and in cases where it might have attracted the death penalty were that still in force , decades ago.

actually it is not 'extremely rare' at all. it is at best, 'uncommon'. But I look forward to you answering (or more likely, ignoring) my question before.

Look forward to your statistics then, show me the stats on wrongful conviction in murder cases in Australia.

voila... avoiding the question as do ALL DP advocates. So tell me (if you would of course), what is YOUR acceptable rate of innocent executions that you could tolerate and still support the DP?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #128 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:46pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:45pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:44pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:39pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:36pm:

As I stated, extremely rare and in cases where it might have attracted the death penalty were that still in force , decades ago.

actually it is not 'extremely rare' at all. it is at best, 'uncommon'. But I look forward to you answering (or more likely, ignoring) my question before.

Look forward to your statistics then, show me the stats on wrongful conviction in murder cases in Australia.

voila... avoiding the question as do ALL DP advocates. So tell me (if you would of course), what is YOUR acceptable rate of innocent executions that you could tolerate and still support the DP?

Zero.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #129 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:48pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:46pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:45pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:44pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:39pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:36pm:

As I stated, extremely rare and in cases where it might have attracted the death penalty were that still in force , decades ago.

actually it is not 'extremely rare' at all. it is at best, 'uncommon'. But I look forward to you answering (or more likely, ignoring) my question before.

Look forward to your statistics then, show me the stats on wrongful conviction in murder cases in Australia.

voila... avoiding the question as do ALL DP advocates. So tell me (if you would of course), what is YOUR acceptable rate of innocent executions that you could tolerate and still support the DP?

Zero.

so you cannot possibly support the DP in australia since we have wrongful convictions for murder. Lindy chamberlain for instance. Or Andrew Mallard or Darryl Beamish and the list goes on.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #130 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:54pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:20pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:45pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:23pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:22pm:

I see Greggary. A blog spot post. Must be true then because it someones opinion. Roll Eyes

Try again.

LOL

Singapore moved away from a due process model to a crime control model in the '70s. This isn't "someone's opinion": it's a fact.

Grin

Here, this will help you understand the difference:

http://www.ask.com/question/crime-control-model-v-due-process

Oh ian, nobody will ever take this away from you:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkhirlBIYh1qbvnui.jpg

You are a very funny fellow. Grin

nonsense, blog and opinion posts mean nothing.

No nonsense.

Singapore moved away from a due process model to a crime control model in the '70s. This isn't "someone's opinion": it's a fact.

What makes this even funnier, is the fact that you keep denying it.

When you leave school and get a job, ian, I suggest you do some travelling (and buy a few books).

Your limited understanding on just about every subject in this forum is making you look quite the fool.

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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #131 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:56pm Show me the list of people wrongly executed, not wrongfully concvicted. I doubt any of those cases would have attracted the death penalty. I dont see anyone advocating a mandatory death penalty which is the only context in which your argument would make sense.
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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #132 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:57pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:54pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:20pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:45pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:23pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:22pm:

I see Greggary. A blog spot post. Must be true then because it someones opinion. Roll Eyes

Try again.

LOL

Singapore moved away from a due process model to a crime control model in the '70s. This isn't "someone's opinion": it's a fact.

Grin

Here, this will help you understand the difference:

http://www.ask.com/question/crime-control-model-v-due-process

Oh ian, nobody will ever take this away from you:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkhirlBIYh1qbvnui.jpg

You are a very funny fellow. Grin

nonsense, blog and opinion posts mean nothing.

No nonsense.

Singapore moved away from a due process model to a crime control model in the '70s. This isn't "someone's opinion": it's a fact.

What makes this even funnier, is the fact that you keep denying it.

When you leave school and get a job, ian, I suggest you do some travelling (and buy a few books).

Your limited understanding on just about every subject in this forum is making you look quite the fool.

Pure nonsense.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #133 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:03pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:56pm:

Show me the list of people wrongly executed, not wrongfully concvicted. I doubt any of those cases would have attracted the death penalty. I dont see anyone advocating a mandatory death penalty which is the only context in which your argument would make sense.

what kind of illogical argument is that??? the list of wrongly executed people iw widely available so go look it up for yourself. But if you are proposing a return to the DP then the issue of wrongly convicted is centre stage. You are jumping all over the place in this argument placing yourself in hopeless knots. You statement that you could not accept wrongful executions MUST mean you oppose the DP since it is impossible to guarantee only the guilty are executed. No model of justice can categorically exclude error and the evidence is plentiful to suggest that the error-rate is quite notable. This is the DP's biggest flaw: that you cannot redress the wrongful execution like you can a wrongful conviction and jail term.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #134 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:04pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:57pm:

Pure nonsense.

"Changes to the Singapore Criminal Justice Process:

"There are 2 widely-accepted models of criminal justice process, namely due-process and crime-control.

"The due-process model embodies the ideology that it is better to let 10 guilty men go free than convict an innocent one. The presumption of innocence is therefore a central tenet of this model.

"On the contrary, the main feature of the crime-control model concentrated on vindicating victim’s rights rather than on protecting the defendant’s rights.

"The Criminal Procedure Code (Amendment) Act 1976 introduced elements of the crime-control model into Singapore. Prior to 1976, the criminal justice system pre-dominantly resembled the due-process model."

Singapore Law Review

http://www.singaporelawreview.org/2008/04/changes-to-the-singapore-criminal-just...

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Question: Do you support the death penalty?
yes 7 (50.0%) no 6 (42.9%) not sure 1 (7.1%) Total votes: 14 « Created by: Bobby. on: Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:19pm »