Australian Politics Forum - The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...

longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #135 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:05pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:57pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:54pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:20pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:45pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:23pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:22pm:

I see Greggary. A blog spot post. Must be true then because it someones opinion. Roll Eyes

Try again.

LOL

Singapore moved away from a due process model to a crime control model in the '70s. This isn't "someone's opinion": it's a fact.

Grin

Here, this will help you understand the difference:

http://www.ask.com/question/crime-control-model-v-due-process

Oh ian, nobody will ever take this away from you:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkhirlBIYh1qbvnui.jpg

You are a very funny fellow. Grin

nonsense, blog and opinion posts mean nothing.

No nonsense.

Singapore moved away from a due process model to a crime control model in the '70s. This isn't "someone's opinion": it's a fact.

What makes this even funnier, is the fact that you keep denying it.

When you leave school and get a job, ian, I suggest you do some travelling (and buy a few books).

Your limited understanding on just about every subject in this forum is making you look quite the fool.

Pure nonsense.

There are multiple books on the failings of the Singapore justice system including its shortcuts, corruption and frankly, lack of genuine interest in genuine justice. It is interested in law and order and mainly order. Their legal system is very effective at maintaining order but the price is one of wrongful convictions, unjust executions and a legal system that penalises just about anything and everything.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #136 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:08pm If there are any Star Trek fans, think of the Cardassian Model of Justice.
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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #137 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:25pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:05pm:

[

There are multiple books on the failings of the Singapore justice system including its shortcuts, corruption and frankly, lack of genuine interest in genuine justice. It is interested in law and order and mainly order. Their legal system is very effective at maintaining order but the price is one of wrongful convictions, unjust executions and a legal system that penalises just about anything and everything.

An opinion which may or may not be correct, however this does not prove that their system is not one of due process.

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #138 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:27pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:03pm:

[

what kind of illogical argument is that??? the list of wrongly executed people iw widely available so go look it up for yourself. But if you are proposing a return to the DP then the issue of wrongly convicted is centre stage. You are jumping all over the place in this argument placing yourself in hopeless knots. You statement that you could not accept wrongful executions MUST mean you oppose the DP since it is impossible to guarantee only the guilty are executed. No model of justice can categorically exclude error and the evidence is plentiful to suggest that the error-rate is quite notable. This is the DP's biggest flaw: that you cannot redress the wrongful execution like you can a wrongful conviction and jail term.

Ok. Show me one wrongly executed person in Australia, just one. Surely you have one example? If as you state the DP has errors then just show one example where a person was wrongly executed when the DP was in place in Australia.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 104696 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #139 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:50pm Hang the bastard - hang em high.
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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #140 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:12pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:27pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:03pm:

[

what kind of illogical argument is that??? the list of wrongly executed people iw widely available so go look it up for yourself. But if you are proposing a return to the DP then the issue of wrongly convicted is centre stage. You are jumping all over the place in this argument placing yourself in hopeless knots. You statement that you could not accept wrongful executions MUST mean you oppose the DP since it is impossible to guarantee only the guilty are executed. No model of justice can categorically exclude error and the evidence is plentiful to suggest that the error-rate is quite notable. This is the DP's biggest flaw: that you cannot redress the wrongful execution like you can a wrongful conviction and jail term.

Ok. Show me one wrongly executed person in Australia, just one. Surely you have one example? If as you state the DP has errors then just show one example where a person was wrongly executed when the DP was in place in Australia.

Ronald Ryan - last man executed and very dubious
Colin Ross http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/05/27/1211653994898.html
and there are others

but it is not the point. as you said yourself you have zero tolerance for excuting the innocent so there needs to only be a risk of that to make it wrong. Yet you support it. Why

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #141 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:13pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:25pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:05pm:

[

There are multiple books on the failings of the Singapore justice system including its shortcuts, corruption and frankly, lack of genuine interest in genuine justice. It is interested in law and order and mainly order. Their legal system is very effective at maintaining order but the price is one of wrongful convictions, unjust executions and a legal system that penalises just about anything and everything.

An opinion which may or may not be correct, however this does not prove that their system is not one of due process.

for goodness sake, are you THAT obtuse??? the Singapore legal system proudly proclaims that it has abandoned the due process model.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #142 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:15pm Sometimes due process can be a hindrance to justice in my opinion.
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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #143 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:20pm Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:15pm: Sometimes due process can be a hindrance to justice in my opinion. a hindrance to revenge yes. But justice is by definition JUST and must therefore be open and fair to all which must therefore be a process. Summary justice is not justice.
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Lionel Edriess

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #144 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:21pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:27pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:03pm:

[

what kind of illogical argument is that??? the list of wrongly executed people iw widely available so go look it up for yourself. But if you are proposing a return to the DP then the issue of wrongly convicted is centre stage. You are jumping all over the place in this argument placing yourself in hopeless knots. You statement that you could not accept wrongful executions MUST mean you oppose the DP since it is impossible to guarantee only the guilty are executed. No model of justice can categorically exclude error and the evidence is plentiful to suggest that the error-rate is quite notable. This is the DP's biggest flaw: that you cannot redress the wrongful execution like you can a wrongful conviction and jail term.

Ok. Show me one wrongly executed person in Australia, just one. Surely you have one example? If as you state the DP has errors then just show one example where a person was wrongly executed when the DP was in place in Australia.

@ ian:

How about you illustrate the differences between those few who (may) have been incorrectly sentenced/executed and those numerous convicted offenders who have been released on parole and have gone on to re-offend? Prior to DNA testing is a bit difficult, so we'll stick with the DNA convictions, eh?

The family of Jill Meagher are awaiting with bated breath.

How about the death penalty when there are no questions to be answered - guilty as charged and incontrovertible evidence?

What happens, these days, if you own a dog that bites?

Funny, innit, these days the gangs'll take a risk about poppin' a cap in yo' ass - but the Law must be seen to be above reproach.

And ain't it! Grin

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Toughen up, Australia!

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #145 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:26pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:20pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Sometimes due process can be a hindrance to justice in my opinion.

a hindrance to revenge yes. But justice is by definition JUST and must therefore be open and fair to all which must therefore be a process. Summary justice is not justice.

Your religion and mine differ.

If you are hit, you say here is my other cheek.

In mine we are hit, we hit him back.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #146 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:30pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:26pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:20pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Sometimes due process can be a hindrance to justice in my opinion.

a hindrance to revenge yes. But justice is by definition JUST and must therefore be open and fair to all which must therefore be a process. Summary justice is not justice.

Your religion and mine differ.

If you are hit, you say here is my other cheek.

In mine we are hit, we hit him back.

and look at the frigging mess THAT has gotten you and your country into!!!! Im not pro-palestinian at all. Quite the contrary in fact. But you could learn a little from the Jesus you reject about getting on with people better.

Revenge is a dish best served cold and leads to two graves (mixed quotes I know). and no, I dont want to discuss the 'israel problem'.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #147 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:32pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:12pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:27pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:03pm:

[

what kind of illogical argument is that??? the list of wrongly executed people iw widely available so go look it up for yourself. But if you are proposing a return to the DP then the issue of wrongly convicted is centre stage. You are jumping all over the place in this argument placing yourself in hopeless knots. You statement that you could not accept wrongful executions MUST mean you oppose the DP since it is impossible to guarantee only the guilty are executed. No model of justice can categorically exclude error and the evidence is plentiful to suggest that the error-rate is quite notable. This is the DP's biggest flaw: that you cannot redress the wrongful execution like you can a wrongful conviction and jail term.

Ok. Show me one wrongly executed person in Australia, just one. Surely you have one example? If as you state the DP has errors then just show one example where a person was wrongly executed when the DP was in place in Australia.

Ronald Ryan - last man executed and very dubious
Colin Ross http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/05/27/1211653994898.html
and there are others

but it is not the point. as you said yourself you have zero tolerance for excuting the innocent so there needs to only be a risk of that to make it wrong. Yet you support it. Why

So you had to go back 80 years before the advent of current forensic technology and DNA to find someone who may have been hanged in error. No one is suggesting we use methods in use 80 years ago to try and prove peoples guilt in a court of law. Im suggesting that we use methods available today. If a persons guilt cannot be corroborated by DNA and forensic evidence then I would be in favour of not executing the death sentence until it can be.

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #148 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:34pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:13pm:

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:25pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:05pm:

[

There are multiple books on the failings of the Singapore justice system including its shortcuts, corruption and frankly, lack of genuine interest in genuine justice. It is interested in law and order and mainly order. Their legal system is very effective at maintaining order but the price is one of wrongful convictions, unjust executions and a legal system that penalises just about anything and everything.

An opinion which may or may not be correct, however this does not prove that their system is not one of due process.

for goodness sake, are you THAT obtuse??? the Singapore legal system proudly proclaims that it has abandoned the due process model.

No it doesnt, that was an opinion piece posted by Greggary.

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #149 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:36pm Leaving an act un avenged is no justice.
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Poll
Question: Do you support the death penalty?
yes 7 (50.0%) no 6 (42.9%) not sure 1 (7.1%) Total votes: 14 « Created by: Bobby. on: Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:19pm »