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  Australian Politics Forum › General Discussion › General Board › The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
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Poll Poll
Question: Do you support the death penalty?

yes    
  7 (50.0%)
no    
  6 (42.9%)
not sure    
  1 (7.1%)




Total votes: 14
« Created by: Bobby. on: Jul 1st, 2013 at 7:19pm »

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The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... (Read 34448 times)
longweekend58
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #150 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:38pm  
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:32pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:12pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:27pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:03pm:
[

what kind of illogical argument is that???  the list of wrongly executed people iw widely available so go look it up for yourself. But if you are proposing a return to the DP then the issue of wrongly convicted is centre stage.  You are jumping all over the place in this argument placing yourself in hopeless knots.  You statement that you could not accept wrongful executions MUST mean you oppose the DP since it is impossible to guarantee only the guilty are executed. No model of justice can categorically exclude error and the evidence is plentiful to suggest that the error-rate is quite notable. This is the DP's biggest flaw: that you cannot redress the wrongful execution like you can a wrongful conviction and jail term.

Ok. Show me one wrongly executed person in Australia, just one. Surely you have one example? If as you state the DP has errors then just show one example where a person was wrongly executed when the DP was in place in Australia.


Ronald Ryan - last man executed and very dubious
Colin Ross http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/05/27/1211653994898.html
and there are others

but it is not the point.  as you said yourself you have zero tolerance for excuting the innocent so there needs to only be a risk of that to make it wrong.  Yet you support it. Why

So you had to go back 80 years before the advent of current forensic technology and DNA to find someone who may have been hanged in error. No one is suggesting we use methods in use 80 years ago to try and prove peoples guilt in a court of law. Im suggesting that we use methods available today. If a persons guilt cannot be corroborated by DNA and forensic evidence then I would be in favour of not executing the death sentence until it can be.


there has been no DP in australia for 45 years so it was always going to be hard to find a recent example, is it not? And do you think that current forensics and DNA precludes error and corruption?  Clearly you forget the case of only a few years ago when DNA evidence was banned from Victorian courts after someone was convicted on DNA evidence that was tainted.  We've also had DNA that has shown the wrong  person to be the offender because the process was wrong.  CSI is not real life. People get it wrong - often. People re lazy and corrupt - often. You simply CANNOT preculed error from criminal judgments. thatr is an impossibility for anyone but God in Whose place you currently presume to judge.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #151 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:40pm  
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:34pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:13pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:25pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:05pm:
[



There are multiple books on the failings of the Singapore justice system including its shortcuts, corruption and frankly, lack of genuine interest in  genuine justice. It is interested in law and order and mainly order.  Their legal system is very effective at maintaining order but the price is one of wrongful convictions, unjust executions and a legal system that penalises just about anything and everything.
An opinion which may or may not be correct, however this does not prove that their system is not one of due process.


for goodness sake, are you THAT obtuse??? the Singapore legal system proudly proclaims that it has abandoned the due process model.

No it doesnt, that was an opinion piece posted by Greggary.


the Singapore Law Review is an OPINION PIECE?????

http://www.singaporelawreview.org/2008/04/changes-to-the-singapore-criminal-just...
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #152 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:42pm  
Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:36pm:
Leaving an act un avenged is no justice.


well that pretty much explains 2000 years of Jewish dispersion and misery.  No wonder your lot rejected the Messiah. That whole 'forgiveness' thing is as foreign to you as pork chops.  Forgiveness and compassion are what CHANGES things.  REVENGE is why arabs and jews are fighting over issues dating back millennia.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Peter Freedman
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #153 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm  
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:27pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:03pm:
[

what kind of illogical argument is that???  the list of wrongly executed people iw widely available so go look it up for yourself. But if you are proposing a return to the DP then the issue of wrongly convicted is centre stage.  You are jumping all over the place in this argument placing yourself in hopeless knots.  You statement that you could not accept wrongful executions MUST mean you oppose the DP since it is impossible to guarantee only the guilty are executed. No model of justice can categorically exclude error and the evidence is plentiful to suggest that the error-rate is quite notable. This is the DP's biggest flaw: that you cannot redress the wrongful execution like you can a wrongful conviction and jail term.

Ok. Show me one wrongly executed person in Australia, just one. Surely you have one example? If as you state the DP has errors then just show one example where a person was wrongly executed when the DP was in place in Australia.


Now you are becoming seriously silly, ian. No doubt many innocent people have been executed. We will never know.
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God grant me the patience to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and, above all, the wisdom to tell the difference.
 
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ian
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #154 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm  
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:40pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:34pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:13pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:25pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:05pm:
[



There are multiple books on the failings of the Singapore justice system including its shortcuts, corruption and frankly, lack of genuine interest in  genuine justice. It is interested in law and order and mainly order.  Their legal system is very effective at maintaining order but the price is one of wrongful convictions, unjust executions and a legal system that penalises just about anything and everything.
An opinion which may or may not be correct, however this does not prove that their system is not one of due process.


for goodness sake, are you THAT obtuse??? the Singapore legal system proudly proclaims that it has abandoned the due process model.

No it doesnt, that was an opinion piece posted by Greggary.


the Singapore Law Review is an OPINION PIECE?????

http://www.singaporelawreview.org/2008/04/changes-to-the-singapore-criminal-just...

*sigh* yes, the Singapore law review publishes opinion pieces. It is not an official government document.

The Singapore Law Review welcomes contributions on all aspects of law from both students and academics for consideration to be published in the next issue of the Law Review. - See more at: http://www.singaporelawreview.org/the-singapore-law-review-journal/submissions/#sthash.jhNM2kDJ.dpuf
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Avram Horowitz
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #155 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:48pm  
The death penalty for me is an important act of vengeance.

If you take the life of someone, then your life will be taken.

See longweekend the Munich Olympics massacre.

Vengeance is sought. So we can not bring them to trial but we find them, in the night, thousands of Kim's away, we find them and we kill them.

So the death penalty is not just the justice but it is demanded to right a wrong.

I will leave your forgiveness for your churches. We deal in a more tough world.
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longweekend58
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #156 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:49pm  
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:40pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:34pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:13pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:25pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:05pm:
[



There are multiple books on the failings of the Singapore justice system including its shortcuts, corruption and frankly, lack of genuine interest in  genuine justice. It is interested in law and order and mainly order.  Their legal system is very effective at maintaining order but the price is one of wrongful convictions, unjust executions and a legal system that penalises just about anything and everything.
An opinion which may or may not be correct, however this does not prove that their system is not one of due process.


for goodness sake, are you THAT obtuse??? the Singapore legal system proudly proclaims that it has abandoned the due process model.

No it doesnt, that was an opinion piece posted by Greggary.


the Singapore Law Review is an OPINION PIECE?????

http://www.singaporelawreview.org/2008/04/changes-to-the-singapore-criminal-just...

*sigh* yes, the Singapore law review publishes opinion pieces. It is not an official government document.

The Singapore Law Review welcomes contributions on all aspects of law from both students and academics for consideration to be published in the next issue of the Law Review. - See more at: http://www.singaporelawreview.org/the-singapore-law-review-journal/submissions/#sthash.jhNM2kDJ.dpuf


Now you are just being a tool.  it is a peer-reviewed journal of the law society.  This stupidity of yours comment renders the rest of your opinions equally pointless.  It is interesting and rather ironic that in a thread where you believe justice can be perfect that you dont seem to have any standard of evidence that is achievable. ANd I am equally sure you dont understand that.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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ian
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #157 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:51pm  
Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm:
cv
Now you are becoming seriously silly, ian. No doubt many innocent people have been executed. We will never know.

The point is that the death penalty was dropped in Australia before the advent of modern forensic science and DNA testing And the doubts which have been laid at these decades old executions are being voiced becuse modern DNA testing is casting the doubt. These people would never be convicted and executed under our current system.
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longweekend58
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #158 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:51pm  
Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:48pm:
The death penalty for me is an important act of vengeance.

If you take the life of someone, then your life will be taken.

See longweekend the Munich Olympics massacre.

Vengeance is sought. So we can not bring them to trial but we find them, in the night, thousands of Kim's away, we find them and we kill them.

So the death penalty is not just the justice but it is demanded to right a wrong.

I will leave your forgiveness for your churches. We deal in a more tough world.


and their sons grow up to kill your sons to avenge their fathers death and on it goes. And that is why arabs are today killing jews literally because of murders that took place millenia ago.

Your system is really working well for you, isnt it?
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #159 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:53pm  
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:51pm:
Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm:
cv
Now you are becoming seriously silly, ian. No doubt many innocent people have been executed. We will never know.

The point is that the death penalty was dropped in Australia before the advent of modern forensic science and DNA testing And the doubts which have been laid at these decades old executions are being voiced becuse modern DNA testing is casting the doubt. These people would never be convicted and executed under our current system.



you have to be a teenager. no one else could be so naively confident that the modern forensic science can deliver error-free judgements.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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ian
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #160 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:54pm  
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:49pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:40pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:34pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:13pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:25pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:05pm:
[



There are multiple books on the failings of the Singapore justice system including its shortcuts, corruption and frankly, lack of genuine interest in  genuine justice. It is interested in law and order and mainly order.  Their legal system is very effective at maintaining order but the price is one of wrongful convictions, unjust executions and a legal system that penalises just about anything and everything.
An opinion which may or may not be correct, however this does not prove that their system is not one of due process.


for goodness sake, are you THAT obtuse??? the Singapore legal system proudly proclaims that it has abandoned the due process model.

No it doesnt, that was an opinion piece posted by Greggary.


the Singapore Law Review is an OPINION PIECE?????

http://www.singaporelawreview.org/2008/04/changes-to-the-singapore-criminal-just...

*sigh* yes, the Singapore law review publishes opinion pieces. It is not an official government document.

The Singapore Law Review welcomes contributions on all aspects of law from both students and academics for consideration to be published in the next issue of the Law Review. - See more at: http://www.singaporelawreview.org/the-singapore-law-review-journal/submissions/#sthash.jhNM2kDJ.dpuf


Now you are just being a tool.  it is a peer-reviewed journal of the law society.  This stupidity of yours comment renders the rest of your opinions equally pointless.  It is interesting and rather ironic that in a thread where you believe justice can be perfect that you dont seem to have any standard of evidence that is achievable. ANd I am equally sure you dont understand that.

Like I said, you poorly understand what you are talking about. And you continue to display it. You will not find where the Singapore government states their legal system does not allow due process. That is what was claimed and you have yet to show otherwise.
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ian
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #161 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:55pm  
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:53pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:51pm:
Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm:
cv
Now you are becoming seriously silly, ian. No doubt many innocent people have been executed. We will never know.

The point is that the death penalty was dropped in Australia before the advent of modern forensic science and DNA testing And the doubts which have been laid at these decades old executions are being voiced becuse modern DNA testing is casting the doubt. These people would never be convicted and executed under our current system.



you have to be a teenager. no one else could be so naively confident that the modern forensic science can deliver error-free judgements.

I never claimed it did. Do you have some sort of comprehension problem?
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longweekend58
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #162 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:58pm  
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:55pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:53pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:51pm:
Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm:
cv
Now you are becoming seriously silly, ian. No doubt many innocent people have been executed. We will never know.

The point is that the death penalty was dropped in Australia before the advent of modern forensic science and DNA testing And the doubts which have been laid at these decades old executions are being voiced becuse modern DNA testing is casting the doubt. These people would never be convicted and executed under our current system.



you have to be a teenager. no one else could be so naively confident that the modern forensic science can deliver error-free judgements.

I never claimed it did. Do you have some sort of comprehension problem?


it is derived using a process I call logic - you should try it. Let me sum it up for you:
You declare that there must be zero tolerance for error in executions.
You are in favour of the DP
ergo you must believe in a error-free judicial system

care to find the flaw in the above logical progression?
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Posts: 45675
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #163 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:59pm  
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:54pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:49pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:40pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:34pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:13pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:25pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:05pm:
[



There are multiple books on the failings of the Singapore justice system including its shortcuts, corruption and frankly, lack of genuine interest in  genuine justice. It is interested in law and order and mainly order.  Their legal system is very effective at maintaining order but the price is one of wrongful convictions, unjust executions and a legal system that penalises just about anything and everything.
An opinion which may or may not be correct, however this does not prove that their system is not one of due process.


for goodness sake, are you THAT obtuse??? the Singapore legal system proudly proclaims that it has abandoned the due process model.

No it doesnt, that was an opinion piece posted by Greggary.


the Singapore Law Review is an OPINION PIECE?????

http://www.singaporelawreview.org/2008/04/changes-to-the-singapore-criminal-just...

*sigh* yes, the Singapore law review publishes opinion pieces. It is not an official government document.

The Singapore Law Review welcomes contributions on all aspects of law from both students and academics for consideration to be published in the next issue of the Law Review. - See more at: http://www.singaporelawreview.org/the-singapore-law-review-journal/submissions/#sthash.jhNM2kDJ.dpuf


Now you are just being a tool.  it is a peer-reviewed journal of the law society.  This stupidity of yours comment renders the rest of your opinions equally pointless.  It is interesting and rather ironic that in a thread where you believe justice can be perfect that you dont seem to have any standard of evidence that is achievable. ANd I am equally sure you dont understand that.

Like I said, you poorly understand what you are talking about. And you continue to display it. You will not find where the Singapore government states their legal system does not allow due process. That is what was claimed and you have yet to show otherwise.


Well if you are no prepare to accept the word of the Singapore Law society then it probably means there is no standard of evidence you would ever accept.  It makes debating with you rather pointless.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Bobby.
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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #164 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 8:00pm  
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:58pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:55pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:53pm:
ian wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:51pm:
Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm:
cv
Now you are becoming seriously silly, ian. No doubt many innocent people have been executed. We will never know.

The point is that the death penalty was dropped in Australia before the advent of modern forensic science and DNA testing And the doubts which have been laid at these decades old executions are being voiced becuse modern DNA testing is casting the doubt. These people would never be convicted and executed under our current system.



you have to be a teenager. no one else could be so naively confident that the modern forensic science can deliver error-free judgements.

I never claimed it did. Do you have some sort of comprehension problem?


it is derived using a process I call logic - you should try it. Let me sum it up for you:
You declare that there must be zero tolerance for error in executions.
You are in favour of the DP
ergo you must believe in a error-free judicial system

care to find the flaw in the above logical progression?




Longy,
Are you saying that Julian Knight, Martin Bryant & Adrian Bayley shouldn't have got the noose?
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