Australian Politics Forum - The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...

Peter Freedman

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #375 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:26pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:37pm:

Aussie wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:29pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:17pm:

There is no domestic death penalty in Israel yes.

This is true.

*Pop* goes the vengeance crap.

Wink

I was not referring to domestic vengeance. I was talking about vengeance on our people by non Jews.

But anyway this is not the point.

We're you also talking about the vengeance of Jews on non Jews? Or is that different?

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Peter Freedman Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5275 Wellington Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #376 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:28pm Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:15pm: We live with different threats to you. The principle of vengeance is the same all over the world. No, Avram, vengeance isn't a principle. It is an emotional reaction.
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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38710 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #377 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:29pm Ian, that graph says nothing about the death penalty and any deterrent value it might have. In fact, if the DP was really the cause of that drop, there would be a consistent drop and not a rise.
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Peter Freedman Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5275 Wellington Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #378 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:05pm Not all American states have the DP. National figures are meaningless. Murder rates in death penalty states have been higher than in those without execution every year for at least the last twenty. Source: www.deathpenalty.org.
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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #379 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:23pm

Interestingly enough, the violent crime statistics in the US have been trending down since the 80's. This directly corresponds to the number of executions which have followed an upward trend since that time. It pretty well puts to rest any argument that the DP corresponds to an actual increase in crime.

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #380 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:27pm

Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:05pm:

Not all American states have the DP. National figures are meaningless.

Murder rates in death penalty states have been higher than in those without execution every year for at least the last twenty.

Source: www.deathpenalty.org.

Yes, but the comparison used is a states murder rates with the DP compared to another without the DP. This is meaningless Now compare the murder rates within the individual states to the number of people they execute, you will find that the more people they execute, the lower the murder rate.

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #381 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:29pm

Aussie wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:29pm:

Ian, that graph says nothing about the death penalty and any deterrent value it might have.

In fact, if the DP was really the cause of that drop, there would be a consistent drop and not a rise.

I agree with your first point. As to the rise in crime, that is only a rise compared to the previous year, the trend is still significantly downward.

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Peter Freedman

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #382 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 3:02am

The graph is meaningless.

Firstly, it covers all violent crime and not all such offences attract the death penalty.

Secondly it produces figures for the entire US, while only some states conduct executions.

A meaningful comparison is the murder rates for execution states versus the rates for non execution ones.

This shows the murder rate for the execution states has been higher for at least the last twenty years.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #383 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 8:56am

ian wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 8:31pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 8:21pm:

ian wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 8:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 8:09pm:

oddly enough the present obsesion with pedophiles has neither reduced nor increased the rate of sexual offending towards children. again, it is one of those offences which is part of human nature in general and not just part of the sociopath or predatory subgroups.

What are you babbling about now? You really have no idea at all what you are talking about, pedophilia can not be cured, there has never, ever been one rehabilitated. You appear to be attempting to noramilse this behaviour now. A normal human response is to have empathy for children, not cause them harm.

now you are treading into my are of expertise (Psychology). Firstly there is an enormous difference between pedophilia and sex offending. The former isnt even an offence. It is a mental illness. the vast majoritt of sexual abuse of children is not done by pedophiles but by Joe and Joan Average. it occures in every society, culture, religion, social and educational strata and is unfortunately a part of the human condition. I am not trying to normalise it. I however do have an actual understanding of areas of abnormal psychology having actually published a book on one area of it.

You might try and work on your comprehension. Just because someone doesnt wish to execute a particular criminal does not mean he is sympathising. That is the view you'd expect from a bogan with a grad 5 education and married to his cousin.

Nah mate, youre full of it. Even a complete beginner knows pedophiles are predators. You have no understanding. You are trying to normalise it.

thats because anyone with any actual knowledge would be aware that the majority of sex offenders against children are not pedophiles - they are sex offenders. pedophiles are people with a sexual preference for children.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #384 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 8:59am

ian wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

Longweekend states pedophilia is his area of expertise , then goes on to state that most child abusers are not pedophiles. Heres the truth of the matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia
However, the Mayo Clinic reports perpetrators who meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia offend more often than non-pedophile perpetrators, and with a greater number of victims. They state that approximately 95% of child sexual abuse incidents are committed by the 88% of child molestation offenders who meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia.[13] A behavioral analysis report by the FBI states that a "high percentage of acquaintance child molesters are preferential sex offenders who have a true sexual preference for [prepubescent] children (i.e., true pedophiles)".[11]

a misrepresented report because it is based on convictions and not offences. it is inherently biased. most sexual offenders against children are opportunistic and not predatory which is also one of the diagnositc crtieria that is missed.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74534 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #385 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 8:59am you can always rely on longy to change the topic to something else when he doesn't want to answer something
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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #386 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:01am

John Smith wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 8:53pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:36pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:33pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:29pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:25pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:22pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:20pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:11pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:04pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 6:55pm:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 6:45pm:

ian wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 6:09pm:

Lets see someone defend this pedophiles right to live amongst humans.

It is a question of society's right to kill him. I believe we have no such right.

In the case referred to, a man aged 42 has been sentenced to 40 years. If he serves his full sentence he may never be released.

Every day of the rest of his life, he can think about what he did and why he is behind bars.

Isn't that a better punishment than putting him to death?

meanwhile every day for the next 80 yrs, this kid gets to re-live everything they did to him. Nope, I still think it would be better for all concerned if they killed the bloke ... at least then the kid would know there is one monster under his bed who is never coming back.

thats already true. again., all you want - all you DP-supporters ever want - is DEATH and BLOOD.

you cant even make a conherent cogent argument for the DP beyond bloodlust

that's exactly right, in these cases, I want blood .... I'll leave the arguments for you. By the way, I notice you avoided answering my question . If after he, or any other pedo, has served his sentence & moves in next door to your grandkids would you object?

its moot because he isnt getting out. And I dont have the problem of a guilty conscience of executing criminals who may not all be actually guilty. Thats a problem you refuse to address.

ahh, I notice now you keep your answer limited to him, whereas before you were worried about the innocent ... Ok, would you have been happy if Dennis Ferguson or any other pedo , upon his release from prison (and before dying), moved in next door to your grandkids?

As for the guilty conscience bullsh1t, I doubt it would bother me too much. As long as my intentions are honest, I accept that I cannot control everything and understand that mistakes are made and I am prepared to live with that.

ah the irony! YOU are prepared to 'live with it'. Pity the poor innocent bugger executed. As predicted, this is all about YOU and your bloodlust and has zero to do with justice of any kind.

of course it's about justice .... but you asked me to address my supposed guilty conscience ... now you want me to tell you about the victims conscience?

wow... you really dont understand arguments very well do you?

or you don't maybe understand how to present a question properly? ... you asked about my conscience and then complain that it is about me and not the victim ... you're not the sharpest tool in the shed are you? Not to worry, despite that, you still are a tool

well let me clarify it with the simple question that I can almost guarantee you wont answer directly.

What rate of error in executing the guilty are you prepared to accept and still support the death penalty?

as many as it takes. you want me to present a number? that's not how it works dopey ....

as long as the system does everything it can to try and keep the number to a minimum, that is all anyone can ask

so if 10 people a year are executed and 3 are innocent you are okay with that?

as long as everyone did everything their jobs properly, yes.

so you arent really that interested in justice then are you. Just as long as some people die you are happy. Their guilt or innocence is not of great concern to you.

thanks for proving my point which is that bloodlust is the central driver for DP proponents.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #387 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:06am ian wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:11pm: Any of you geniuses posting so called "studies: saying the DP does not deter crime care to explain why violent crime is on a downward trend in the US? the DP was introduced 30 yeas before this graph thus rendering your graph POINTLESS>.
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John Smith

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #388 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:10am

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:01am:

so you arent really that interested in justice then are you. Just as long as some people die you are happy. Their guilt or innocence is not of great concern to you.thanks for proving my point which is that bloodlust is the central driver for DP proponents

See there you go with your stupid statements again. The death penalty is justice dopey. And I only support the death penalty on the guilty. I do not propose we hang the innocent so stop trying to make it about something its not. It's not about bloodlust, its about JUSTICE. Real justice, not this take them to a shrink, give a tablet and a good lecture and make them promise not to do it again. The only point proven is that you are incapable of sticking to topic and you would rather go on a rant about me than answer basic questions.

By the way, Just to refresh your memory, last nights question ..... would you be happy for a serial pedo who was released from jail, after serving his sentence, to move next door to your grandkids ?

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #389 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:22am

John Smith wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:10am:

By the way, Just to refresh your memory, last nights question ..... would you be happy for a serial pedo who was released from jail, after serving his sentence, to move next door to your grandkids ?

I don't accept the premise of your question.

Why is the "serial pedo" being released?

You seem to be suggesting that there are only two options when it comes to dealing with "serial pedos": the death penalty or release from jail.

Undecided

The first question you should ask is "would you be happy for a serial pedo to be released from jail"?

Then, you can ask the second question regarding the grandkids.

(and, of course, by "serial pedo" I assume that you meant "serial sex offender")

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Poll
Question: Do you support the death penalty?
yes 7 (50.0%) no 6 (42.9%) not sure 1 (7.1%) Total votes: 14 « Created by: Bobby. on: Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:19pm »