Australian Politics Forum - The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...

longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #405 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:36pm

Socrates wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:53am:

LW I usually agree with your posts, especially with regards to political debate, however there are one or two occasions where i find that your views are absolutely stupid and you seem to veer over to the other sheep who have neither experience with the subject or who do not sympathise with the victims or their loved ones who are left with a lifetime of suffering, and this is one of those occasions........

The psychopaths who commit these crimes cannot be normalised and should be eradicated from society. The pedophiles plain and simply should also be eradicated, no question. The premeditated murders who plan and execute the most heinous of crimes should suffer the DP......no long terms taxpayer funded death row holiday, immediate injection. Killing of a LE Officer, police or other agencies, should be automatic DP.

Call it revenge, call it barbaric, call it what the hell you like. I consider it a very effective deterrent which saves innocent lives and delivers justice.

the problem with your argument is that you are quite simply wrong in every aspect. the DP does NOT deter crime. It is not foolproof and many innocents have been executed. very few criminals are actually psychopaths ro sociopaths so that eliminates that category as well. So we are left with the real remaining reason for the DP which is revenge and bloodlust

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #406 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:37pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

ian wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:23pm:

Interestingly enough, the violent crime statistics in the US have been trending down since the 80's. This directly corresponds to the number of executions which have followed an upward trend since that time. It pretty well puts to rest any argument that the DP corresponds to an actual increase in crime.

pity that what you say is complete BS. And unsupported, of course.

Tell us a bit more about the book you wrote on pedophiles and how that is part of human behaviour and how these people arent predators.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #407 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:44pm

So in the end what do we have here?

We have John Smith who believes passionately in exeucting criminals but with not a lot of problems with the innocent being caught up in the hangmans noose as well

We have Ian who reject all evidence contrary to his opinion and while he states that no innocent should ever be executed he has this quaint belief that an error-free death penalty is possible because of 'dna and forensics'.

We have Avram who seems to believe in vengeance for everything and seems quite happy for the innocent to die along with the guilty. Worst point of course is that this beleif applies to arabs not jews. (and I am an Israel supporter)

We have incontrovertible evidence that not only is the DP not a deterrent but seems to increase the rate of violent crime.

The argument about 'protecting soceiety from recidivist criminals' always fails because the option of life without parole exists. But then there isnt the joy of killing someone.

so in short, there is no reason, no justification and no positive outcome for the DP. On the other hand there is the guaranteed execution of innocent people and an increase in violent crime. And thats before we even begin to discuss the moral ambiguity of the state killing someone.

so, bloodlusting DP proponents... tell me again why the DP is good. Do a pro and con analysis of it. See if you can even make a half-decent case.

I tip you will ignore all the above and go back to Milat, Ferguson or whoever and reduce the debate to your own pitiful arguments-by-example rather than an argument on principle.

over to you bloodlusters!

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« Last Edit: Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:19pm by longweekend58 »

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #408 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:17pm ...
Back to top	AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..." IP Logged

longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #409 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:17pm ...
Back to top	AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..." IP Logged

ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #410 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:18pm i dont know why but a lot of posts arent showing in this thread, getting a bit tired of this site.
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JC Denton Gold Member Offline Posts: 5471 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #411 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:45pm there is no guarantee of an "increase in violent crime".
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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #412 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:46pm JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:45pm: there is no guarantee of an "increase in violent crime". experience of other jurisdictions with the DP suggests there is such a a guarantee.
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JC Denton

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #413 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:10pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

there is no guarantee of an "increase in violent crime".

experience of other jurisdictions with the DP suggests there is such a a guarantee.

like where and how are you bridging the gap between correlation and causation here

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #414 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:25pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

there is no guarantee of an "increase in violent crime".

experience of other jurisdictions with the DP suggests there is such a a guarantee.

No, all evidence suggests the opposite. The rise in the number of people executed in the US directly corresponds with a drop in violent crime. Thats as simple as it gets.

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Aussie

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #415 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:33pm

ian wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:25pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

there is no guarantee of an "increase in violent crime".

experience of other jurisdictions with the DP suggests there is such a a guarantee.

No, all evidence suggests the opposite. The rise in the number of people executed in the US directly corresponds with a drop in violent crime. Thats as simple as it gets.

Ian, this page of information suggests you are wrong.

Quote:

For 2011, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.7, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.1

For 2010, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.6, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.9

For 2009, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.9, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.8

For 2008, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 5.2, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.3

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #416 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:43pm

Aussie wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:33pm:

ian wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:25pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

there is no guarantee of an "increase in violent crime".

experience of other jurisdictions with the DP suggests there is such a a guarantee.

No, all evidence suggests the opposite. The rise in the number of people executed in the US directly corresponds with a drop in violent crime. Thats as simple as it gets.

Ian, this page of information suggests you are wrong.

Quote:

For 2011, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.7, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.1

For 2010, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.6, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.9

For 2009, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.9, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.8

For 2008, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 5.2, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.3

no it doesnt, you need to understand what I am saying here. All you are doing is posting compariison rates between states, this proves nothing since some states may have already had a high violent crime rate which may very well be the reason why they have the DP to begin with.. Violent crimee overall in the US has been trending down since the 80's. This directly corresponds with an increaqse in the number of people executed. Now, if you have a look at individual states you will alos find that thier violent crime rate trends down directly corresponding toi the numkber of people executed. I cant make it any simpler than that.

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Aussie

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #417 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:51pm

Quote:

Violent crimee overall in the US has been trending down since the 80's. This directly corresponds with an increaqse in the number of people executed. Now, if you have a look at individual states you will alos find that thier violent crime rate trends down directly corresponding toi the numkber of people executed. I cant make it any simpler than that.

What the information I provided shows is that the DP has no connection with the decrease in (in this case) murders. 'Simple as that.'

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« Last Edit: Jun 30^th, 2013 at 3:01pm by Aussie »

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bambu

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #418 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 3:08pm

Time America woke up to itself ... and stopped execution-homiciding human beings in
death chambers

Wonder when California will be starting with the execution-homiciding [some people are calling it 'mass murder'] of the 700+ convicteds it has on its death row?

Got themselves a brand new shining death chamber
and renovated the old gas chamber.

Statistics show that some of the 700+ inmates on death row could be innocent.

Obama stays silent.

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John Smith

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #419 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 3:35pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:44pm:

So in the end what do we have here?

We have John Smith who believes passionately in exeucting criminals but with not a lot of problems with the innocent being caught up in the hangmans noose as well

We have Ian who reject all evidence contrary to his opinion and while he states that no innocent should ever be executed he has this quaint belief that an error-free death penalty is possible because of 'dna and forensics'.

We have Avram who seems to believe in vengeance for everything and seems quite happy for the innocent to die along with the guilty. Worst point of course is that this beleif applies to arabs not jews. (and I am an Israel supporter)

We have incontrovertible evidence that not only is the DP not a deterrent but seems to increase the rate of violent crime.

The argument about 'protecting soceiety from recidivist criminals' always fails because the option of life without parole exists. But then there isnt the joy of killing someone.

so in short, there is no reason, no justification and no positive outcome for the DP. On the other hand there is the guaranteed execution of innocent people and an increase in violent crime. And thats before we even begin to discuss the moral ambiguity of the state killing someone.

so, bloodlusting DP proponents... tell me again why the DP is good. Do a pro and con analysis of it. See if you can even make a half-decent case.

I tip you will ignore all the above and go back to Milat, Ferguson or whoever and reduce the debate to your own pitiful arguments-by-example rather than an argument on principle.

over to you bloodlusters!

Firstly longstupidone, where have I ever said I have no problem with innocents being caught up? Do you have to twist what I say to try to make your point valid? You asked me if I would feel guilty ... I answered no. There is a difference.

Secondly, you said 'reduce the debate to your own pitiful arguments-by-example rather than an argument on principle' .... that's as close as you've ever come to actually understanding it. The fact that you did so by accident and probably haven't even realised shows what a fool you are. The death penalty should be looked at on a case by case basis. Not as a matter of principle. Principles have nothing to do with justice.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Poll
Question: Do you support the death penalty?
yes 7 (50.0%) no 6 (42.9%) not sure 1 (7.1%) Total votes: 14 « Created by: Bobby. on: Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:19pm »