Australian Politics Forum - The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...

ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #420 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 4:17pm

Aussie wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:51pm:

[quote]Violent crimee overall in the US has been trending down since the 80's. This directly corresponds with an increaqse in the number of people executed. Now, if you have a look at individual states you will alos find that thier violent crime rate trends down directly corresponding toi the number of people executed. I cant make it any simpler than that.

What the information I provided shows is that the DP has no connection with the decrease in (in this case) murders. 'Simple as that.'No, while the correlation between high DP executions and the downward trend on crime doesnt necassarily mean causation (although there is obviously a strong inference) comparing a states crime rate without the DP to one with the DP is erroneous because there are obviously other factors at work including individual state gun licensing laws and existing historical high or low rates of homicide. What we can say without doubt that it shows is that violent crime does not increase in corelation with an increase of executions.
as some are claiming here, but just the opposite. There is no argument that the US violent crime rate including that for homicide has been trending downward since the 80's, there is also no argument that DP execution rates have been rising during this period. Causation is the argument here, whether or not the high DP death rates are directly causing a lower rate of violent crime. We must also take inot account, stricter law enforcement, higher incarceration rates, longer prison terms and higher personal firearm ownership rates.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38706 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #421 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 4:29pm You've had me a little confused with what you have previously said with this, Mr Smith: Quote: Firstly longstupidone, where have I ever said I have no problem with innocents being caught up? Can you clarify your position on this matter?
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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #422 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:38pm

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:10pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

there is no guarantee of an "increase in violent crime".

experience of other jurisdictions with the DP suggests there is such a a guarantee.

like where and how are you bridging the gap between correlation and causation here

74 studies have concluded this. So dont argue with me, argue with the researchers.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #423 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:40pm Tell me why you would expect an act to go unavenged? I don't understand why you would accept it.
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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #424 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:40pm

John Smith wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 3:35pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:44pm:

So in the end what do we have here?

We have John Smith who believes passionately in exeucting criminals but with not a lot of problems with the innocent being caught up in the hangmans noose as well

We have Ian who reject all evidence contrary to his opinion and while he states that no innocent should ever be executed he has this quaint belief that an error-free death penalty is possible because of 'dna and forensics'.

We have Avram who seems to believe in vengeance for everything and seems quite happy for the innocent to die along with the guilty. Worst point of course is that this beleif applies to arabs not jews. (and I am an Israel supporter)

We have incontrovertible evidence that not only is the DP not a deterrent but seems to increase the rate of violent crime.

The argument about 'protecting soceiety from recidivist criminals' always fails because the option of life without parole exists. But then there isnt the joy of killing someone.

so in short, there is no reason, no justification and no positive outcome for the DP. On the other hand there is the guaranteed execution of innocent people and an increase in violent crime. And thats before we even begin to discuss the moral ambiguity of the state killing someone.

so, bloodlusting DP proponents... tell me again why the DP is good. Do a pro and con analysis of it. See if you can even make a half-decent case.

I tip you will ignore all the above and go back to Milat, Ferguson or whoever and reduce the debate to your own pitiful arguments-by-example rather than an argument on principle.

over to you bloodlusters!

Firstly longstupidone, where have I ever said I have no problem with innocents being caught up? Do you have to twist what I say to try to make your point valid? You asked me if I would feel guilty ... I answered no. There is a difference.

Secondly, you said 'reduce the debate to your own pitiful arguments-by-example rather than an argument on principle' .... that's as close as you've ever come to actually understanding it. The fact that you did so by accident and probably haven't even realised shows what a fool you are. The death penalty should be looked at on a case by case basis. Not as a matter of principle. Principles have nothing to do with justice.

Principles have nothing to do with justice??? that comment alone invalidates EVERYTHING you have to say on the topic!

unbelievably stupid.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #425 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:50pm

Aussie wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 4:29pm:

You've had me a little confused with what you have previously said with this, Mr Smith:

Quote:

Firstly longstupidone, where have I ever said I have no problem with innocents being caught up?

Can you clarify your position on this matter?

He was asked before if for example 10 people were executed per year and if 3 were innocent would he have a problem with it. In response he said that as long as everyone had done their best he had no issue with this. Ergo, he has no real problem with the execution of the innocent as long as i isnt deliberate. It isnt exactly the high moral ground!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #426 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:51pm Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:40pm: Tell me why you would expect an act to go unavenged? I don't understand why you would accept it. The fact that you literally have no comprehension of an alternative response other than revenge is deeply disturbing.
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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #427 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:52pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:38pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:10pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

there is no guarantee of an "increase in violent crime".

experience of other jurisdictions with the DP suggests there is such a a guarantee.

like where and how are you bridging the gap between correlation and causation here

74 studies have concluded this. So dont argue with me, argue with the researchers.

75 studies have coincluded the opposite.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #428 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 6:00pm

ian wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:52pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:38pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:10pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

there is no guarantee of an "increase in violent crime".

experience of other jurisdictions with the DP suggests there is such a a guarantee.

like where and how are you bridging the gap between correlation and causation here

74 studies have concluded this. So dont argue with me, argue with the researchers.

75 studies have coincluded the opposite.

thank you for yet again providing evidence of your intellectual deficiencies and I would like to thank you for playing (and losing) this debate and if there were a DP in Australia it should be reserved for the desperately stupid just in case they breed.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #429 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 6:05pm And I think that draws this year's annual DP debate to a close with the pro-DP section predictably immolating themselves on a pyre of bloodlust and revenge and intellectual paucity. It was rather easy to be honest.
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Bobby.

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #430 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 6:59pm

Bobby. wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:55am:

Imagine the main street of every city,
with lampposts from which 100's of bad guys are hanging by ropes
with signs around their necks saying what they have done:

murderer, rapist, thief, pedophile, terrorist.

Oh the joy for justice & a deterrent to others.

bump

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #431 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 7:08pm Longweekend. None of your alleged arguments successfully changed my mind as a supporter of the death penalty.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #432 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 7:13pm

ian wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:52pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:38pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:10pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

there is no guarantee of an "increase in violent crime".

experience of other jurisdictions with the DP suggests there is such a a guarantee.

like where and how are you bridging the gap between correlation and causation here

74 studies have concluded this. So dont argue with me, argue with the researchers.

75 studies have coincluded the opposite.

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #433 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 7:18pm Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 7:08pm: Longweekend. None of your alleged arguments successfully changed my mind as a supporter of the death penalty. IM not sure why you think having a closed mind and next to no respect for life is a virtue.
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 137516 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #434 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 7:18pm Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:40pm: Tell me why you would expect an act to go unavenged? I don't understand why you would accept it. I don't understand you. Seriously.
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Poll
Question: Do you support the death penalty?
yes 7 (50.0%) no 6 (42.9%) not sure 1 (7.1%) Total votes: 14 « Created by: Bobby. on: Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:19pm »