Australian Politics Forum - The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...

greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 137504 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #90 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:01pm Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 3:51pm: Nice try, but these sentences of ... "For the term of your natural life" have a history of being rescinded and revoked in later years. You forgot to provide some evidence.
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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #91 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:03pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 3:53pm:

ian wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 10:51pm:

an eye for an eye. We need to bring this form of justice back and force the poofs who think its "socially unacceptable" to watch the executions. Singapore has a very low crime rate, they have got it right. Execute the drug dealers and use the bamboo cane for minor offences such as littering and offensive behaviour.

you need to read a bit more about Singapores 'justice' system which doesnt grant the right to free speech, a proper trial or due process.

huh? No justice system grants the "right to free speech" thats normally a consitutional right and is always relative, no country has the right to absolute free speech. As for the other 2 points, wrong on both counts. Maybe you need to read a bit more.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #92 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:05pm

I have noticed that with rare exception, most supporters of the Death Penalty give short shrift or in come cases, total disregard for the concept of GUILT. Reasonable doubt seems okay. The death penalty must always attract the very highest standard of evidence - much higher than the average 'absence of reasonable doubt' but rather absence of ANY doubt. But the experience of all countries that apply the DP is that they use it not sparingly but rather often and the number of post-execution proofs of innocence are disturbingly high. But supporters of the DP seem almost to a man, totally disinterested in the problem of judicial failings or police corruption. As long as someone is killed, their lust is sated... for a while.

Again with rare exception, vocal supporters of the DP tend to be frustrated or violent people seeking to see others die - even if not by their own hand (although a disturbing number offer to do so!). The concept of guilt - absolute guilt - rarely gets even thought about.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bobby.

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #93 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:05pm

Bobby. wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 3:37pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 7:28pm:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 6:44pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 4:03pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 3:51pm:

My opinion has always been that premeditated state-sanctioned killing is not an acceptable form of punishment.

I accept your right to have this opinion. In the final washup it really doesn't matter what happens to these serial killers and serial rapists ~~ the damage has already been done.

But then again, I'm drawn to the fact that the surviving families of these murder and rape victims need to feel that society has a justice system that does not allow for leniency and compassion towards these perpetrators.

The only closure the immediate family of murder victims have is when the perpetrator dies. For as long as the serial killer and rapists are alive and enjoying the comforts and entertainments found in prisons, the family members of the deceased are in a limbo of unresolved grieving and bereavement.

What an extraordinary generalisation. How can you claim to know what is in the mind of every family member of every murder victim?

The justice system is not about vengeance or "closure" for the victim's family.

No nation that practises judicial murder is truly civilised.

Every time there is a particularly nasty killing, the "hang 'em high" mob crawl out of their holes to vent their blood lust.

Then they crawl back in till the next time.

What hang em high mob?

bump

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #94 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:06pm

Bobby. wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 3:37pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 7:28pm:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 6:44pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 4:03pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 3:51pm:

My opinion has always been that premeditated state-sanctioned killing is not an acceptable form of punishment.

I accept your right to have this opinion. In the final washup it really doesn't matter what happens to these serial killers and serial rapists ~~ the damage has already been done.

But then again, I'm drawn to the fact that the surviving families of these murder and rape victims need to feel that society has a justice system that does not allow for leniency and compassion towards these perpetrators.

The only closure the immediate family of murder victims have is when the perpetrator dies. For as long as the serial killer and rapists are alive and enjoying the comforts and entertainments found in prisons, the family members of the deceased are in a limbo of unresolved grieving and bereavement.

What an extraordinary generalisation. How can you claim to know what is in the mind of every family member of every murder victim?

The justice system is not about vengeance or "closure" for the victim's family.

No nation that practises judicial murder is truly civilised.

Every time there is a particularly nasty killing, the "hang 'em high" mob crawl out of their holes to vent their blood lust.

Then they crawl back in till the next time.

What hang em high mob?

bump

as if to prove the point...

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #95 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:12pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

I have noticed that with rare exception, most supporters of the Death Penalty give short shrift or in come cases, total disregard for the concept of GUILT. Reasonable doubt seems okay. The death penalty must always attract the very highest standard of evidence - much higher than the average 'absence of reasonable doubt' but rather absence of ANY doubt. But the experience of all countries that apply the DP is that they use it not sparingly but rather often and the number of post-execution proofs of innocence are disturbingly high. But supporters of the DP seem almost to a man, totally disinterested in the problem of judicial failings or police corruption. As long as someone is killed, their lust is sated... for a while.

Again with rare exception, vocal supporters of the DP tend to be frustrated or violent people seeking to see others die - even if not by their own hand (although a disturbing number offer to do so!). The concept of guilt - absolute guilt - rarely gets even thought about.

ahhh, emotional rhetoric aimed at portraying DP supprters as rabid blood lusters. what nonsense, most supporters of the DP incluidng myself simply recognise that there are those amongst us who appear human but are not and should be put down. And under our legal system if there is reasonable doubt, the accused is found innocent, not gulity. I wonder where you people get these bizarre ideas from. It is extraordinarly rare for an innocent person to be found guilty under our system, so rare that there hasnt been a case of wrongful imprisonment for decades. Now with the advent of DNA science it is almost impossible for it to happen.

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BigOl64

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #96 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:13pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

I have noticed that with rare exception, most supporters of the Death Penalty give short shrift or in come cases, total disregard for the concept of GUILT. Reasonable doubt seems okay. The death penalty must always attract the very highest standard of evidence - much higher than the average 'absence of reasonable doubt' but rather absence of ANY doubt. But the experience of all countries that apply the DP is that they use it not sparingly but rather often and the number of post-execution proofs of innocence are disturbingly high. But supporters of the DP seem almost to a man, totally disinterested in the problem of judicial failings or police corruption. As long as someone is killed, their lust is sated... for a while.

Again with rare exception, vocal supporters of the DP tend to be frustrated or violent people seeking to see others die - even if not by their own hand (although a disturbing number offer to do so!). The concept of guilt - absolute guilt - rarely gets even thought about.

Or you could be wrong.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #97 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:20pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:03pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 3:53pm:

ian wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 10:51pm:

an eye for an eye. We need to bring this form of justice back and force the poofs who think its "socially unacceptable" to watch the executions. Singapore has a very low crime rate, they have got it right. Execute the drug dealers and use the bamboo cane for minor offences such as littering and offensive behaviour.

you need to read a bit more about Singapores 'justice' system which doesnt grant the right to free speech, a proper trial or due process.

huh? No justice system grants the "right to free speech" thats normally a consitutional right and is always relative, no country has the right to absolute free speech. As for the other 2 points, wrong on both counts. Maybe you need to read a bit more.

What planet do you live on ian? Seriously? Have you ever heard of Singapore?

"Singapore's transition from a due process model to a crime control model occurred in 1976 ... "

http://simply-inconceivable.blogspot.com.au/2008/03/due-process-or-crime-control...

"Singapore’s belief in the “crime control” model has led to a significant dismantling of the traditional common law adversarial system. The utilitarian emphases on crime control and efficiency combine to shift much of the fact-finding process and decisionmaking from judges and trials to police and prosecutors at the pre-trial stage. Much of the cluster of rights protecting the adversarial process are significantly pruned.

"The right to counsel exists, but is subordinated to the “needs” of police investigation, which includes the procurement of self-incriminatory statements admissible in court.

"No published rules or guidelines governing the manner of police interrogation exist.

"The right to silence has been declared not to be a constitutional right ... "

http://www.isrcl.org/Papers/Hor.pdf

" ... the excessive focus on crime control rather than due process ... "

https://mercury.smu.edu.sg/rsrchpubupload/17580/WrongfulConvictionsInSingapore%5...

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BigOl64

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #98 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:21pm

ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:12pm:

[
I wonder where you people get these bizarre ideas from. It is extraordinarly rare for an innocent person to be found guilty under our system, so rare that there hasnt been a case of wrongful imprisonment for decades. Now with the advent of DNA science it is almost impossible for it to happen.

The last case I heard of was just recently in Nth QLD, where the police prosecutor withheld exculpatory evidence from the defence and a person was imprisoned for 15 yrs before it was uncovered

End result, he was released and now looks to sue the state, the cop quit before any internal investigation was completed and no charges have been laid against the cop.

In the event this sort of thing occurred in a DP case the cop should face murder charges and take their chances with the courts.

Pity you can't fully trust the judiciary or the cops to do their job professionally. Angry

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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #99 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:22pm .
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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #100 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:23pm ian wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:22pm: I see Greggary. A blog spot post. Must be true then because it someones opinion. Try again.
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Lord Herbert

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #101 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:26pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:21pm:

In the event this sort of thing occurred in a DP case the cop should face murder charges and take their chances with the courts.

Good point.

Police officers later found to have falsified evidence in cases of the death penalty where the prisoner has been convicted, should themselves be placed on death row.

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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd... Reply #102 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:28pm Good point Herbert.
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BigOl64

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #103 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:29pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:26pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:21pm:

In the event this sort of thing occurred in a DP case the cop should face murder charges and take their chances with the courts.

Good point.

Police officers later found to have falsified evidence in cases of the death penalty where the prisoner has been convicted, should themselves be placed on death row.

Maybe not death row, but definitely a long time in prison to think about the pros and cons of with holding or falsifying evidence.

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Peter Freedman

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd...
Reply #104 - Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:40pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

I have noticed that with rare exception, most supporters of the Death Penalty give short shrift or in come cases, total disregard for the concept of GUILT. Reasonable doubt seems okay. The death penalty must always attract the very highest standard of evidence - much higher than the average 'absence of reasonable doubt' but rather absence of ANY doubt. But the experience of all countries that apply the DP is that they use it not sparingly but rather often and the number of post-execution proofs of innocence are disturbingly high. But supporters of the DP seem almost to a man, totally disinterested in the problem of judicial failings or police corruption. As long as someone is killed, their lust is sated... for a while.

Again with rare exception, vocal supporters of the DP tend to be frustrated or violent people seeking to see others die - even if not by their own hand (although a disturbing number offer to do so!). The concept of guilt - absolute guilt - rarely gets even thought about.

My Gawd, what have you done with the real longy, you fiend?

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God grant me the patience to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and, above all, the wisdom to tell the difference.

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Poll
Question: Do you support the death penalty?
yes 7 (50.0%) no 6 (42.9%) not sure 1 (7.1%) Total votes: 14 « Created by: Bobby. on: Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:19pm »