Australian Politics Forum - Where the Israeil Jews really came from

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from Reply #45 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:05am The Arab caliphs ordered the translations. (This is why no literature or drama was translated on their orders, btw) The Jews and the Syriac and Greek-speaking Christians did the work. It is obvious from the references you cite.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Reply #46 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:28am

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:05am:

The Arab caliphs ordered the translations.

*YOUR* reference describes the arab thirst for knowledge - inspired by islam and the quran - and who channeled this great thirst by initiating the greatest translation program in the history of mankind.

In other words, the *ENTIRE PREMISE* of your argument to date is completely blown out of the water.

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:05am:

The Jews and the Syriac and Greek-speaking Christians did the work. It is obvious from the references you cite.

Tell me Soren, what exactly is it about this simple sentence - "Generally speaking, however, it is often very difficult to apportion credit for translation or original work to specific ethnic groups" - that you are having trouble understanding?

Also please explain to me, with such a wealth of jewish and christian talent in the pre-islamic middle east and near east - why was it that they didn't actually start exercising their talent until after the muslims came along? Well we already know the answer to that - because - as your own source so eloquently describes - it was the muslim-arabs who *INITIATED* a great translation program, and gave the christian and jewish *AND MUSLIM* translators the institutions, resources and tools they needed to go forth and translate and learn.

Refuting you is starting to feel like kicking a helpless puppy.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Adamant

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Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Reply #47 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:02pm:

have you actually read it?

Yes I have Gandalf.

I own my copy unlike you who cherry pick steal filch thieve rob alter ignore rewrite kill rape and debauch. The smacking muslim scum are not mentioned until chapter 17 page 203.

I suggest you BUY a copy instead of showing yourself up as being a cheapskate.

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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%

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Soren

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Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Reply #48 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:28am:

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:05am:

The Arab caliphs ordered the translations.

*YOUR* reference describes the arab thirst for knowledge - inspired by islam and the quran - and who channeled this great thirst by initiating the greatest translation program in the history of mankind.

In other words, the *ENTIRE PREMISE* of your argument to date is completely blown out of the water.

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:05am:

The Jews and the Syriac and Greek-speaking Christians did the work. It is obvious from the references you cite.

Tell me Soren, what exactly is it about this simple sentence - "Generally speaking, however, it is often very difficult to apportion credit for translation or original work to specific ethnic groups" - that you are having trouble understanding?

Also please explain to me, with such a wealth of jewish and christian talent in the pre-islamic middle east and near east - why was it that they didn't actually start exercising their talent until after the muslims came along? Well we already know the answer to that - because - as your own source so eloquently describes - it was the muslim-arabs who *INITIATED* a great translation program, and gave the christian and jewish *AND MUSLIM* translators the institutions, resources and tools they needed to go forth and translate and learn.

Refuting you is starting to feel like kicking a helpless puppy.

Oh, I understand very well why you pluck that 'generally speaking' out of its context.
It is because if you were to include what is written before and after it, you would see that what I have been saying all along is correct.

You are simply not honest.

Why the translations didn't start before? Well, they did. But you need peace and leisure to translate. It was very difficult to come by both while the Muslims were monstering the Levant.
But it was happening in Ireland, far from the madding crowd - and Muslims. Also in Paris - Abelard was prominent there in the 12th century. The University of Bologna (which I had the good fortune to attend briefly) was established in 1088.
The Toledo School of Translation started in the 12th century, when Toledo was re-taken from the Muslims.

The Arabs' role is grossly exaggerated in all this for propaganda purposes and to 'make nice' towards an essentially illiterate and brutal invading force.

If these Arabs had been really that cultured, they couldn't have fallen so far down the sh!thole as they are now. Egypt is the cultural centre of Islam. After more than a thousand years of Islam, it's literacy rate is 72 % (63 % for women). Saudi, filthy rich - 87% (83% for women). Morocco? 56 % for all, 44 % for women. Afghanistan, you ask? 28% literacy for the whole population and 12.6 % for women. Iraq? 78.2% overall, 70.6% for women.
Some civilisation. You bvggers want to dine out forever on some fantasy about 12th century intellectual golden age. Bollocks. The golden age is hugely overstated. And dishonoured. Most Arabs are as primitive as they were when Mohammed found them, 1400 years ago.i

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96767	Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from Reply #49 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:38am University of Bologna? I say, old chap, do you have expertise in salami as well? Jolly good. Just give me a few slices, please. I need to save some room for your specialty. Miam miam.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96767	Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from Reply #50 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 11:06am Shurely shome mishtake.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Reply #51 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:27pm

Adamant wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:09pm:

I own my copy unlike you who cherry pick steal filch thieve rob alter ignore rewrite kill rape and debauch. The smacking muslim scum are not mentioned until chapter 17 page 203.

Chapter 17 starts on page 169 on my version. I have the 2011 paperback edition.

Either way, the "smacking muslim scum", according to Montesfiore, are the ones who stopped the persecution of the jews and allowed them back in to live in the city. The wiki article you first quoted says exactly this. So I'm not really sure what your beef is. Attacking the people who institutionalised the protection of the jews to live an worship freely in Jerusalem is a very strange way of defending the jews.

Adamant wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:09pm:

I suggest you BUY a copy instead of showing yourself up as being a cheapskate.

I am very confused Adamant - you seem to want to demonstrate both the happy times the jews had under Byzantine rule as well as the evilness of the muslims - yet all the sources you have quoted - including both the wiki article as well as Montefiore clearly attests to both institutionalised Byzantine persecution followed by muslim protection of the jews. Is there something I'm missing?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Reply #52 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:53pm

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:56pm:

But it was happening in Ireland, far from the madding crowd - and Muslims. Also in Paris - Abelard was prominent there in the 12th century. The University of Bologna (which I had the good fortune to attend briefly) was established in 1088.
The Toledo School of Translation started in the 12th century, when Toledo was re-taken from the Muslims.

I'm sorry Soren, but your source doesn't mention the movements in Ireland or Paris as "initiating the first organized, large-scale translation activity in history" - that is specifically credited to the muslim arabs.

As for anything comparable to the arab translation program, this from your encyclopedia:

Quote:

This unprecedented commitment to translation can be distinguished from any translation activity the world had known before in terms of three factors...

a) Range of source languages...

b) Range of topics and subjects...

c) Most importantly, the translation movement which evolved under Islamic rule was organized and institutionalized. Translation was sponsored and supported by the government and specific institutions, or translation chambers, were set up to initiate and regulate the flow of translations. The first such translation chamber was set up by al-Mansur, the second Abbasid caliph (754-775) and expanded considerably by al-Rashid (786-809) and al-Ma'mun (813-33)

Your argument that the "brutal and illiterate" invaders were merely accidental overseers of a great cultural flowering, and that it all happened in spite of, not because of the direction of the arab rulers, simply has no legs. There is certainly not a hint of that in you encyclopedia - but if you think there is, please point it out to me. I have a pdf copy of the relevant chapter. Please humour me Soren, stop making baseless claims and back them up.

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:56pm:

The Arabs' role is grossly exaggerated in all this for propaganda purposes and to 'make nice' towards an essentially illiterate and brutal invading force.

Your bigotry and willful ignorance on this subject is both despicable and hilarious. Hint: if you really want to propagate this nonsense, best not to reference a source that says the exact opposite. Again:

Quote:

[the arab conquerors] were eager learners. Inspired the richness of the civilizations they were now encountering for the first time, and explicitly encouraged by the Qur'an to seek knowledge wherever it could be found, they began a huge campaign to acquire the learning of the nations under their rule and naturally turned to translation as the means by which the new sources of knowledge could be accessed

Is there anything in that chapter that you can quote that demonstrates this passage was taken out of context, and in truth, the translation program was not driven, inspired, led by the arab rulers?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Reply #53 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 4:06pm

A question that has a very simple answer.

Lets look at some medical and disease trends with respect to skin cancer shall we?

THe worlds 2nd highest melanoma related skin cancer rate is found in Israel - second only to Australia (non indigenous people statistics only)

Does anybody know why the highest and 2nd highest skin cancer rates in the world are found in Australia and Israel??

Any thoughts?

Any reason why people several hours drive away in occupied Palestine, or Jordan, or Kuwait have far lower skin cancer rates than the general Israeli population?

I wonder what could cause such a spike in skin cancer incidence in Israel and Australia

(another interesting statistic is that Israel (per capita) is the world's highest user of sun screen lotion. What is going on here ladies and gentlemen?)

The important thing to notice in the global skin cancer rate data (below) is that the only nation in the world to come anywhere near Australia and New Zealand is Israel

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« Last Edit: Jul 6^th, 2013 at 4:27pm by Chimp_Logic »

Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from Reply #54 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 5:44pm really not sure where you're going with this chimp...
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Frantic

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Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Reply #55 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 7:07pm

Maybe he's making a point about medical care as you look at Canada which has a lower rate than Alaska or Sweden/ norway Wink

.
Maybe the point is countries with HEALTHY populations that live longer will get a higher skin cancer rate than their neighbours whose avg. age life expectancy is 20+ years less.
Or maybe just trying to be racist and saying euro people get skin cancer and Arabs don't? Pretty hard when 1/2 the Arab population dress like beekeepers when outdoors kind of skews the figures a bit!

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96767	Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from Reply #56 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 8:14pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 5:44pm: really not sure where you're going with this chimp... Maybe he’s saying they need to be more tinted. Shurely shome mishtake, eh? Rich tapestry, innit. Have another martini - have two! Nothing to see here.
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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from Reply #57 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 8:37pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:27pm: Chapter 17 starts on page 169 on my version. I have the 2011 paperback edition. Sorry Gandalf did not know that you had an abridged copy, the one that leaves all that horrible muslim hatred out.
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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from Reply #58 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 8:39pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 5:44pm: really not sure where you're going with this chimp... He is a primate Gandalf and has gone ape shiit
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from Reply #59 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 9:20pm Adamant wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 8:37pm: Sorry Gandalf did not know that you had an abridged copy, the one that leaves all that horrible muslim hatred out. Umm.. No. Nice try though.
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