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Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from (Read 39998 times)
polite_gandalf
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Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Jul 2nd, 2013 at 11:29pm
 
Since this charge against the prophet is continually brought up, I thought I should offer a perspective of this episode from an islamic point of view. A perspective that you probably won't find on answering-islam or jihadwatch.

Quote:
Was Prophet Muhammad Anti-Semitic, and did he slaughter the men, women, and children of the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza? Did he plan an ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people from the Arabian Peninsula?

The Prophet preached to the Jews and hoped and prayed for their salvation. He did not teach his followers to hate or exterminate the Jews. The incident at Banu Qurayza is often cited as the brutal murder of innocent Jews, but what is often left out is its historical context. The conflict was not about the Jewish faith but about a war that the tribe of Banu Qurayza had chosen to involve themselves in.

When the Prophet came to Medina he made a constitutional pact with the Jews who were a minority. They were afforded rights and freedoms which they enjoyed and for a time being they lived in peace.  Muslims did not harm them.

To give an example, once a Jew and a Muslim quarreled. When the Jew praised Moses over the Prophet Muhammad the Muslim insulted the Jew. The Jew complained to the Prophet who said: “Don’t confer on me superiority over Moses.”  It was before this backdrop of religious coexistence that the incident of Banu Qurazya occurred.

The pact the Prophet Muhammad made with the Jews along with the other tribes in Medina was part of a written constitution that is considered to be one of history’s oldest.  A whole section of the constitution pertained specifically to the Jews.

The main clauses of the constitution that dealt with Muslim-Jewish relations stated that Muslims and Jews must reside peacefully with one another and that they must not transgress against each other.  The two were to both protect the city of Medina, and if there was to be any foreign aggression, everyone must defend the city together and share in the financial burden.

This peace treaty included the major Jewish tribes of Medina at that time: Banu Quraiza, Banu Nazir, and Banu Qaynuqa.  While there were other Jewish tribes that lived with the Muslims in peace, these particular tribes did not abide by the treaty, and one after another, the three tribes breached the pact.


cont...
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #1 - Jul 2nd, 2013 at 11:30pm
 
Quote:
First, the Banu Nazir attempted to assassinate the Prophet, which led to a war between the Muslims and this tribe.

Second, Banu Qaynuqa breached the right of a Muslim woman by forcibly exposing her private parts while she was in the market. This led to another conflict between Muslims and Jews. Consequently both Jewish tribes were expelled from Medina, due to their violation of the treaty and constitution.

As for Banu Qurayza, not only did they breach the treaty, but they conspired with Meccan and other Arab tribes to launch an assault on Medina to wipe out the Muslims once and for all. Nowadays such actions would be categorized as treason and insurgency.

The Jews and their allies had an army of ten thousand as they marched towards Medina.  The Prophet had only three thousand soldiers. The ensuing battle was called the “Battle of the Ditch” because the Muslims dug a trench around Medina as a defensive ploy.

Never did the Prophet face such a critical and alarming situation in all of his military experience. He even had to send Muslim women and children to the outskirts of Medina for their safety. The Muslims feared that the community would be exterminated.

The Qur’an depicts the situation: “Remember what you felt when they came upon you from above you and from below you, and when your eyes became dim and your hearts came up to your throats, and when most conflicting thoughts about God passed through your minds: for there and then were the believers tried, and shaken with a shock severe.” (33:10)

Suddenly a storm wind blew violently, but strategically in favour of the Prophet and his army. Interminable strife and difficult climatic conditions eventually forced their enemies to leave. Admitting utter defeat, the Meccans and the other tribes left Medina. The Prophet immediately marched to Banu Qurazya.  After a siege of almost one month, Banu Qurayza surrendered.

The Prophet Muhammad then had to deal with the 700 prisoners of war from Banu Qurayza. He did not make any decision regarding them, but left it to an arbitrator, Sa’d bin Muadh, who was an ally of Banu Qurazya and the chief of a major Medinian tribe.

Sa’d took a pledge from both sides—the Prophet and the leaders of Banu Qurayza—that his verdict would be binding. Sa’d’s final verdict was that those who fought against the Muslims should be killed, and that the women and children should be taken as prisoners. This judgment was applied in accordance with the voluntarily agreement of the Jews to be bound by the final verdict.

Banu Qurayza unfortunately faced this harsh punishment due to their very serious act of treason, which entirely undermined the fragile stability of the community. In fact, the Jews did not object to this judgment, as Sa’ad’s decision was based on Jewish law, as expounded in the Torah:

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labour and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engaged you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. (Deuteronomy 20:10-16)

A Hindu writer, Nadhuran, after a detailed study of the historical account and the judgment made upon Banu Qurayza, concluded: “…though it seems harsh, Sa’d’s verdict was fair. First, this verdict accorded with [the Jews’] own laws. Second, the verdict was made by a mediator who was their own ally and they themselves had chosen him to arbitrate between them and Muhammad.”

The prolific author and scholar of comparative religions, Karen Armstrong, states “… It is, however, important to note that the Qurayzah were not killed on religious or racial grounds.  None of the other Jewish tribes in the oasis either objected or attempted to intervene, clearly regarding it as a purely political and tribal matter… The men of Qurayzah were executed for treason.  The seventeen other Jewish tribes of Medina remained in the oasis, living on friendly terms with the Muslims for many years, and the Qur’an continued to insist that Muslims remember their spiritual kinship with the People of the Book…”

Therefore, it is clear from the detailed context of this incident that the charge of ethnic cleansing or genocide of the Jews of Medina is a baseless accusation.

http://mercyprophet.org/mul/node/3319
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #2 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 12:45am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 11:30pm:
Quote:
First, the Banu Nazir attempted to assassinate the Prophet, which led to a war between the Muslims and this tribe.

Second, Banu Qaynuqa breached the right of a Muslim woman by forcibly exposing her private parts while she was in the market. This led to another conflict between Muslims and Jews. Consequently both Jewish tribes were expelled from Medina

As for Banu Qurayza, not only did they breach the treaty, but they conspired with Meccan and other Arab tribes to launch an assault on Medina to wipe out the Muslims once and for all.

The Jews and their allies had an army of ten thousand as they marched towards Medina.  The Prophet had only three thousand soldiers. The ensuing battle was called the “Battle of the Ditch” because the Muslims dug a trench around Medina as a defensive ploy.

Suddenly a storm wind blew violently, but strategically in favour of the Prophet and his army. Interminable strife and difficult climatic conditions eventually forced their enemies to leave. Admitting utter defeat, the Meccans and the other tribes left Medina. The Prophet immediately marched to Banu Qurazya.  After a siege of almost one month, Banu Qurayza surrendered.

The Prophet Muhammad then had to deal with the 700 prisoners of war from Banu Qurayza.

[url]http:


Thats all horsehit gandalf.

The Banu Qurayza did not breach a treaty with Mo they protected his ass from the Meccan soldiers who wanted him for robbing the trade caravans that passed between Syria and Arabia.
Mohammad was a highway robber who stole robbed ransomed and killed for financial gain.

The Meccan soldiers left without a fight because the banu qurayza would not let them in to get Mo the pedo, how the bugger is that breaching a treaty?

Mohammad who is self proclaimed to be gods right hand man is responsible for 900 jewish men and one woman having their heads chopped off in one day, the wealth of the Banu Qurayza was plundered by muslims and the women and children were sold into slavery.
The quran says allah gets 20% of all war booty,allah could create humans from mud and clay yet cannot even make a crappy book called the Quran which is man made without divine origin.
Why does allah need 20% of all war booty,Mohammad and the early muslims were highway robbers does that mean highway robbery is halal for muslims?
www.quran.com/8/41

The Quran says to follow the example profit mo set, does that mean highway robbery is halal as long as the victims are not muslims?
www.quran.com/33/21
(read all english translations by ticking boxes on left, i prefer Muhsin Khan)


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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #3 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 7:47am
 
Baron if you have any evidence for your version of history, please don't be shy and present it.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Yadda
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #4 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 8:33am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3rd, 2013 at 7:47am:

Baron if you have any evidence for your version of history, please don't be shy and present it.




Gandalf, if you have any evidence for your version of moslem history [recorded by moslems] being credible, please don't be shy and present it.






The accounts of moslems and Mohammed from the 7 th century, are now, all ancient history, so it is very difficult to prove the validity of accounts from that time, which have been recorded.

But going on past examples [of historic revision, by moslems], i find it difficult to believe that any account presented by moslems [e.g. of Mohammed as being a virtuous individual], can have any credibility.



Dictionary;
credible = = able to be believed; convincing.
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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #5 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 9:23am
 
Yadda, the version in the OP is based on the version from the Hadith (as well as other independent historical accounts).

You haven't been shy to reference the hadith when its suited your agenda before.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Yadda
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #6 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 9:41am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3rd, 2013 at 9:23am:
Yadda, the version in the OP is based on the version from the Hadith (as well as other independent historical accounts).

You haven't been shy to reference the hadith when its suited your agenda before.




That is because i am a confirmed cherry picker.        Tongue




e.g.
Moslems will lie, profusely, about the intents of ISLAM [to those who are naive and uninformed about ISLAM].

But Anjem Choudary [a moslem] often tells the truth about ISLAM's intents.

And so, i will refer to statements by Anjem Choudary, because i am a 'cherry picker'.

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« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2013 at 9:48am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #7 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 10:27am
 
Lets stick to the topic shall we Y?

Baron (and presumably you) claim a different version of the Banu Qurayza story to that of the hadith (and any independent historical account I have seen). I'd be interested in seeing the evidence for this version.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Adamant
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #8 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 1:07pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3rd, 2013 at 10:27am:
Lets stick to the topic shall we Y?

Baron (and presumably you) claim a different version of the Banu Qurayza story to that of the hadith (and any independent historical account I have seen). I'd be interested in seeing the evidence for this version.


Will my answer satiate your thirst for knowledge Gandalf.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

I notice that he did not rate poets very highly, they must have had a surfeit of them in those days I suppose, must have been a burden on society until the Mo man turned up with the final solution.
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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #9 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 2:03pm
 
nothing to do with the topic adamant.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Adamant
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #10 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 2:41pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3rd, 2013 at 2:03pm:
nothing to do with the topic adamant.



Attack Banu Qurayza because according to Muslim tradition he had been ordered to do so by the angel Gabriel.[45][46][47][48][49][50] One of Muhammad's companions decided that "the men should be killed, the property divided, and the women and children taken as captives". Muhammad approved of the ruling, calling it similar to God's judgment,[48][49][51][52][53] after which all male members of the tribe who had reached puberty were beheaded[46][54]

Nothing at all to do with it move along.
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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #11 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 3:00pm
 
Apologies. I had to find it amongst that huge list of lies.

Anyway, that paragraph simply tells what is established fact anyway - just without the context. It also cites the same primary sources that my article uses.

I'm looking for a source that contradicts the context of the killings I have provided in my article - that the tribe committed treason, conspired to anhialate the muslims, and agreed to surrender on the condition they be judged on jewish law - which they were.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #12 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 5:58pm
 
Gandalf did you only just discover the word "meme"?
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #13 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 5:59pm
 
And so all the stuff about the tree calling out to the Muslim to come and get the Joo hiding behind the tree, the stuff about the kingdom come when the Joos are wiped out - all that's a COMPLETELY different issue, nuffin' to do wiv nuffin', certianly nuffin' to do wiv Mohammed, just the messenger, gov'ner, Allah just gave him all those completely unrelated revelations which now should be looked at in isolation, Mohammed's got nuffin' to do wiv nuffin' if it's nasty, he is only the prophet of being NOICE.

...
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #14 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 6:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 3rd, 2013 at 5:58pm:
Gandalf did you only just discover the word "meme"?


no - is the word a problem for you FD?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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