Australian Politics Forum - Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from

freediver

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #45 - Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:49pm

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The only people executed were those actively partaking in fighting against the muslims.

Aha, but there is more than one way to punish a Jew.

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The rest were spared.

That's one way of putting it. Another way is to say that they were punished for someone else's crime.

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How exactly is it punishment for the actions of a few?

You only just finished explaining that to us. You seem to be trying to weasel your way out of it by saying only those executed were punished. Apparently being serially raped for the rest of your life is not punishment. Nor is being banished from your home (unless of course it is a Muslim being banished, like the Palestinians).

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"Scheming jews" is a nice emotive term to use for cheap points.

Yet it is exactly what you are arguing- that they were obviously conspiring against the Islamic state, when what actually happened was a civil matter involving specific individuals.

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You refuse to look at muslim-jewish relations without post-European-holocaust goggles.

By insisting everything is seen in the context of muslim jewish relations you are already conceding that it was collective punishment.

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The Europeans committed unprecedented atrocities against the jews - therefore anything bad that happens to the jews - even if its outside Europe - has to be viewed through this lense.

I have not actually argued this. My point was that there must be something very wrong the Arab Muslims to carry out their final solution in that context - ie so shortly after the holocaust. Obviously Muhammed's attrocities did not occur in that context, but that does not make them any less wrong. They would have been collective punishment if it was done to Christians and pagans. In fact, Muhammed's program of ethnic cleansing in the Arabian peninsula targetted all non-Muslims equally. But that is not really collective punishment. Those occasions that I am aware of where Muhammed did engage in what is obviously collective punishment all happen to involve Jews, and the excuses given are the same ones used by the Nazis.

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Without any evidence to the contrary, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Muhammad had no anti-semitic, jew-hating agenda, but had an anti-treason agenda.

This is not about Muhammed's motives. It is about collective punishment. You brought up the topic. Disrobing a woman is not treason.

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Your insistence on comparing the prophet's treatment of the jews with the nazis - when you can't even think of anything about the two that are comparable (outside some absurdly vague notion of "setting things in motion"

I have made plenty of valid comparisons. You sound just like a Nazi when you make excuses for Muhammed's evil ways and constantly change the topic to the scheming Jews.

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It is nothing but an emotional tool that has no other purpose than to eliminate any historical context, and reduce the issue to a simplistic "evil muslim" meme.

I have been trying to get you to discuss the issue of collective punishment. It is you who keeps changing the topic. I have brought up a specific example in nearly every single post. You have responded every single time by talking about a very different example in order to paint the Jews in a worse light. Hitler would have approved.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #46 - Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:11pm

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:49pm:

That's one way of putting it. Another way is to say that they were punished for someone else's crime.

By enslavement? Here's the cold hard truth FD - the entire menfolk were dead - killed because they committed treason against their muslim allies. What then for the rest of the women and children? Leave them to till their own fields, defend themselves against armed enemies? Or they could have simply done what just about everyone else did at that time - put them all to the sword. Enslavement = protective custody, and it was standard practice throughout the region. However, under Muhammad, enslavement meant humane treatment, and the very real possibility of emancipation. Your claim that enslavement to the muslims meant serial rape is baseless and hogwash.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:49pm:

Yet it is exactly what you are arguing- that they were obviously conspiring against the Islamic state

I have not come across any historical account that claims otherwise. Have you? You can read all about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Trench#Banu_Qurayza

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:49pm:

when what actually happened was a civil matter involving specific individuals.

No FD - please keep up with the thread.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:49pm:

I have not actually argued this.

Just about every response of yours relating to Muhammad's treatment of the jews has a reference to Hitler and Hitler-like sinister motives. My personal favourite was your statement that "Muhammed persecuted everyone who did not join his religion - Jews, Christians, Pagans etc" - seemingly completely oblivious of the covenant of Medina, as well as the Achtiname of Muhammad.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:49pm:

My point was that there must be something very wrong the Arab Muslims to carry out their final solution in that context - ie so shortly after the holocaust.

What context? You think the Palestinians and arabs should have turned the other cheek to ethnic cleansing because of the holocaust? I have little doubt that the zionists believed they had a free license to do what they did to the Palestinians - because of what the nazis did. And who knows? Maybe that is fair enough - the holocaust was one of the worst attrocities the world had ever seen - and the first committed on an industrial scale. But why you expect the arabs should have simply laid down and accepted being ethnically cleansed is beyond me. But you won't even see it from this perspective - you make the ridiculous leap in logic that this was an arab/muslim plan to wipe out the jews - without context, completely ignoring the whole zionist aggressive-imperialist program - probably carried out at that time to "finish off what the nazis had started". And lets just forget about the centuries in which the jews had lived amongst the muslims and prospered.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:49pm:

Disrobing a woman is not treason.

Agree 100%. Nothing to do with the discussion though.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:49pm:

I have made plenty of valid comparisons.

Really? How can you make "valid" comparisons when, by your own admission, you know next to nothing about the incident? But why don't you humour me FD - how exactly is this incident involving the punishment of a few hundred warriors who broke a covenant and conspired to annihilate the muslim community - in any way shape or form comparable to the rounding up and systematic execution of every man, woman and child jew that could be found?

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:49pm:

I have been trying to get you to discuss the issue of collective punishment. It is you who keeps changing the topic. I have brought up a specific example in nearly every single post. You have responded every single time by talking about a very different example in order to paint the Jews in a worse light. Hitler would have approved.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Collective punishment though is punishing an entire group for the actions of a few. The Banu Qurayza men who were executed were not a small number of perpetrators in amongst a majority of innocents - they all picked up arms against the muslims - in violation of their treaty.

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freediver

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #47 - Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:31pm

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By enslavement? Here's the cold hard truth FD - the entire menfolk were dead

How convenient. All Jews I hope?

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What then for the rest of the women and children? Leave them to till their own fields, defend themselves against armed enemies?

You mean the Muslims?

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Or they could have simply done what just about everyone else did at that time - put them all to the sword. Enslavement = protective custody, and it was standard practice throughout the region.

Probably, but only Muslims made a religion out of it. That's why slavery still has not been effectively abolished in the middle east.

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However, under Muhammad, enslavement meant humane treatment, and the very real possibility of emancipation.

LOL. Some of their descendants are probably still slaves today. Islam was (and is) the last great barrier to the eradication of slavery. It maintained slavery well after nearly every other society on earth abolished it completely.

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Your claim that enslavement to the muslims meant serial rape is baseless and hogwash.

According to Abu it was standard practice. Given that raping your wife is not a punishable offence in Islam, I wouldn;t hold out much hope for the sex slaves.

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I have not come across any historical account that claims otherwise. Have you?

Why would Muhammed allow a competing interpretation? The Jews agreed to be slaughtered and were happy with the outcome. Sounds plausible enough eh?

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No FD - please keep up with the thread.

You brought it up. You gave an example of collective punishment to prove that Muhammed did not engage in collective punishment. Now you fall back on the scheming Jews complaint.

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Just about every response of yours relating to Muhammad's treatment of the jews has a reference to Hitler and Hitler-like sinister motives.

You mean like ethnic cleansing? Getting all the Jews out of Arabia? How could anyone possibly compare that to Hitler?

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What context?

They did it shortly after the holocaust.

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You think the Palestinians and arabs should have turned the other cheek to ethnic cleansing because of the holocaust?

Obviously they should have expelled every Jew they can get their hands on. It's what Muhammed would have done.

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But you won't even see it from this perspective - you make the ridiculous leap in logic that this was an arab/muslim plan to wipe out the jews

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that that's how it ended up going - until they lost the war of course.

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And lets just forget about the centuries in which the jews had lived amongst the muslims and prospered.

They were oppressed. Survival is a better term, and eventually they were all kicked out. Muhammed started the ethnic cleansing, and the Arabs finished it off right after the holocaust. Nice.

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Agree 100%. Nothing to do with the discussion though.

Yes it is. You brought it up to prove that a tribe was not collectively punished.

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Really? How can you make "valid" comparisons when, by your own admission, you know next to nothing about the incident? But why don't you humour me FD - how exactly is this incident involving the punishment of a few hundred warriors who broke a covenant and conspired to annihilate the muslim community - in any way shape or form comparable to the rounding up and systematic execution of every man, woman and child jew that could be found?

It is the way you keep changing the topic. You insist the only example we have discussed and can discuss is the scheming Jews, yet you yourself brought up this example of collective punishment to prove there was no collective punishment.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #48 - Jul 8^th, 2013 at 11:05pm

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:31pm:

According to Abu it was standard practice.

Bvllshit FD - source it or shut up. You're a proven fabricator of what "some muslims" on this forum say, so quote it or it wasn't said.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:31pm:

The Jews agreed to be slaughtered and were happy with the outcome. Sounds plausible enough eh?

Don't strawman me. Look at what I actually said about it, and see if you can discuss that.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:31pm:

You brought it up.

You are talking about an incident that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. That was not the Banu Qurayza, and no tribe was slaughtered because a girl was disrobed.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:31pm:

Now you fall back on the scheming Jews complaint.

Perhaps if you can come up with some evidence that refutes the universally accepted version that the Banu Qurayza conspired with the prophet's enemies, to anhialate the muslims - then you might be able to justify your sneering use of the phrase "scheming jews". This is not about jew hating, its about punishing treason.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:31pm:

ou mean like ethnic cleansing? Getting all the Jews out of Arabia?

For fvcks sake - how many times do I have to say it - not. all. the. jews. were. kicked. out. of. Arabia. Many other jews remained in Medina and lived with the muslims under the covenant of Medina. We know from historical accounts that jews served in the muslim armies, and were present (for example) when Jerusalem was captured. Jews who conspired with the prophet's enemies, attempted assassination of the prophet, took up arms against the muslims - found themselves getting the boot. The rest stayed. You seeing a pattern here?

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:31pm:

Obviously they should have expelled every Jew they can get their hands on. It's what Muhammed would have done.

Do you actually have a sensible, rational thought about this? Try one more time - when the zionists were attacking, terrorising and ethnically cleansing arabs out of their villages and towns in the areas the zionists claimed as their own, how do you expect them to react?

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:31pm:

It is the way you keep changing the topic. You insist the only example we have discussed and can discuss is the scheming Jews, yet you yourself brought up this example of collective punishment to prove there was no collective punishment.

Again, you know nothing about the topic (by your own admission), but are prepared to make leaps in logic that support the "garr - evil muslim" meme. You admit you know next to nothing about the actual facts of the case, but somehow you know that it was along the exact same lines as what Hitler did - even though you can't make a single specific comparison between the two.

Your entire approach to this topic is shaped by deep seated and completely irrational prejudice - that makes you singularly incapable of viewing this in the actual context in which it occurred. I honestly don't understand such a mindset. For me, I have no problem seeing these things as fairly natural and expected behaviour that is entirely non-speciic to any particular religion or culture. Even the actions of the zionists I can understand (though not condone). I protest the injustice meted out to the Palestinians, but curiously you don't see me frothing at the mouth crying "garr! evil jews - they only did it because they are jooooooz!!" But for you, every perceived injustic carried out by muslims must always be traced back to the inherent evilness of islam.

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freediver

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #49 - Jul 9^th, 2013 at 7:56pm

Did the whole tribe of Banu Nazir attempt to assassinate Muhammed?

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Bvllshit FD - source it or shut up.

There are plenty of discussions linked to from the wiki. I have discussed examples from Muhammed's time with you. In one example a soldier was rewarded with the best looking woman because he prevented the women escaping. You seem to think that because Muhammed later demanded her off the soldier and traded her, he "saved" her out of the goodness of his heart, and that this somehow makes up for all the other women that were captured because the soldier prevented their escape. What the example shows is that capturing the women was standard practice, endorsed by Muhammed and excused by Muslims even today.

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You're a proven fabricator of what "some muslims" on this forum say, so quote it or it wasn't said.

I recall you complaining that I always catch you out by being right about what other Muslims have posted here.

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Don't strawman me. Look at what I actually said about it, and see if you can discuss that.

Sure, this is about the fifth time I have responded to it. You ignored it the first few times. I am hardly going to go back and quote you every single time.

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You are talking about an incident that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

You brought it up. It is very relevant. It is a classic example of collective punishment by Muhammed. You can't somehow make up for that with your scheming Jew argument.

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That was not the Banu Qurayza, and no tribe was slaughtered because a girl was disrobed.

Like I already pointed out, there is more than one way to punish a Jew. Is your entire argument based on ignoring examples of collective punishment by playing stupid, even for examples you bring up yourself?

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Perhaps if you can come up with some evidence that refutes the universally accepted version that the Banu Qurayza conspired with the prophet's enemies, to anhialate the muslims - then you might be able to justify your sneering use of the phrase "scheming jews".

I am not attempting to refute it. I have no doubt that the Jews were conspiring against Muhammed. That's what happens when you are a giant douche.

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For fvcks sake - how many times do I have to say it - not. all. the. jews. were. kicked. out. of. Arabia.

How many are left, outside of the ones that fled to Israel?

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Jews who conspired with the prophet's enemies, attempted assassination of the prophet, took up arms against the muslims - found themselves getting the boot. The rest stayed. You seeing a pattern here?

Yes. You are ignoring the ones who got booted out because of the disrobing incident. The pattern is that you either pretend I am talking about something else, or insist we mustn't talk about it, even though you brought it up and it is very relevant.

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Do you actually have a sensible, rational thought about this? Try one more time - when the zionists were attacking, terrorising and ethnically cleansing arabs out of their villages and towns in the areas the zionists claimed as their own, how do you expect them to react?

It is rational because that is what Muhammed actually did. He "cleansed" an area of all non-Muslims, not just Jews. 1400 years later, the Arabs finished the job in the aftermath of the holocaust.

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Your entire approach to this topic is shaped by deep seated and completely irrational prejudice

No Gandalf. I am merely pointing out that you produced examples of Muammed engaging in collective punishment to demonstrate that he did not engage in collective punishment. Furthermore, you appear to think that citing examples of scheming Jews from a completely different tribe somehow means it is not collective punishment. It really is that simple. You have spent the rest of the thread dutifully ignoring this point, then trying to pretend it is somehow irrelevant.

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I honestly don't understand such a mindset. For me, I have no problem seeing these things as fairly natural and expected behaviour that is entirely non-speciic to any particular religion or culture.

These things are outlawed under the Geneva convention. The only people who oppose these standards on principle are Muslims. Supporting collective punishment and slaughtering Jews is not normal. It is not natural. It is not expected behaviour, except from Muslims. It is the lowest standard you could possibly set, yet Muslims have mistaken it for the highest standard, because that's what Muhammed did.

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But for you, every perceived injustic carried out by muslims must always be traced back to the inherent evilness of islam.

It is not exactly hard to trace it back. Muhammed engaged in ethnic cleansing and collective punishment. So do modern Muslims. They oppose higher standards for religious reasons. Islam is the barrier.

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #50 - Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:14pm

Gandy,
What's the point of being a Muslim?? Tell us without any reference to polytheists or Jews or Christians (ie what you might be rejecting or rebelling against).

What moves you to be a Muslim? How does Islam speak to your very being? What does it say to you that you never hear anywhere else so sincerely, so elementally, so compellingly?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #51 - Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:36pm

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 7:56pm:

There are plenty of discussions linked to from the wiki.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Abu never said that serial raping by muslim slave owners was standard practice. Back up your claim, or stop making stupid claims you can't support.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 7:56pm:

I recall you complaining that I always catch you out by being right about what other Muslims have posted here.

I called your bluff when you claimed "some muslims" believed the discovery of camel urine was the pinnacle of islamic scientific discovery. You have never provided a quote of anyone claiming that, despite multiple requests. I did a search on this forum myself and came up blank. You area proven fabricator. You are doing it again with this serial rape claim. Why would anyone take anything you say seriously?

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 7:56pm:

Sure, this is about the fifth time I have responded to it. You ignored it the first few times. I am hardly going to go back and quote you every single time.

Ignored what? I explained the process by which the Banu Qurayza were sentenced to death - they asked for a jewish arbiter to judge them according to jewish law. Jewish law states that the treason they committed is punishable by death. Thus this was the sentence passed - by the arbiter they themselves requested. You erroneously took from this explanation that the jews were "happy" to be executed - I never said that. That is the very definition of a strawman FD.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 7:56pm:

I am not attempting to refute it. I have no doubt that the Jews were conspiring against Muhammed. That's what happens when you are a giant douche.

Interesting approach there. So according to you, no self-defensive action taken by the muslims against their enemies can be justified - because they were led by a giant douche - and by rights should have been anhialated. I guess thats one way to shut down the argument.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 7:56pm:

Yes. You are ignoring the ones who got booted out because of the disrobing incident. The pattern is that you either pretend I am talking about something else, or insist we mustn't talk about it, even though you brought it up and it is very relevant.

All three jewish tribes that were removed from Medina were tribes that had committed acts of war and/or had broken the terms of the covenant they were living under. Therefore the conflict between these tribes and the muslims should be viewed through the lens of power-politics, not religious persecution. The proof in the pudding here is the fact that several other jewish tribes were not booted out, and continued to live amongst the muslims - probably for centuries. wiki mentions 7 tribes that lived under the Medina covenant, that were not kicked out by Muhammad.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 7:56pm:

It is rational because that is what Muhammed actually did.

Newsflash - Muhammad was not alive in 1948. At least provide some evidence that the arabs who invaded Israel were motivated by Muhammad's example of "wiping out" the jews - as opposed to feeling threatened by the presense of a new and hostile imperial power. Can you do that FD?

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 7:56pm:

No Gandalf. I am merely pointing out that you produced examples of Muammed engaging in collective punishment to demonstrate that he did not engage in collective punishment. Furthermore, you appear to think that citing examples of scheming Jews from a completely different tribe somehow means it is not collective punishment.

I literally don't follow. Mind explaining?

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 7:56pm:

The only people who oppose these standards on principle are Muslims. Supporting collective punishment and slaughtering Jews is not normal. It is not natural. It is not expected behaviour, except from Muslims.

I can justifiably claim from you continual refusal to address the actions by the Israelis against the Palestinians in 1947-48 (before the arabs intervened), that you are not "normal" or "natural" - based on your standards. There is no other conclusion left to draw other than you approve of it. You have not attempted to deny it happened, or even obfuscate it. I on the other hand have been very clear that I oppose *BOTH* the actions of the Israelis and the arabs during the turmoil. But I understand that both should be viewed through the contemporary political dynamics in the region - not an absurd and irrelevant reference to a 1400 year old myth. Hell, most of the arabs in those days weren't even all that religious - yet you maintain this ridiculous line that they were basically 1940s version of Al Qaeda, driven by blind religious fanaticism. Ridiculous.

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freediver

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #52 - Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:06pm

Did the whole tribe of Banu Nazir attempt to assassinate Muhammed?

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Abu never said that serial raping by muslim slave owners was standard practice.

Well obviously he would be far more politically correct about it. They were very respectful of their wives and sex slaves. It was not rape because these women were duty-bound to perform.

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I called your bluff when you claimed "some muslims" believed the discovery of camel urine was the pinnacle of islamic scientific discovery.

LOL. There's no flies on you Gandalf.

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Ignored what? I explained the process by which the Banu Qurayza were sentenced to death - they asked for a jewish arbiter to judge them according to jewish law. Jewish law states that the treason they committed is punishable by death. Thus this was the sentence passed - by the arbiter they themselves requested. You erroneously took from this explanation that the jews were "happy" to be executed - I never said that. That is the very definition of a strawman FD.

This was in your second post Gandalf:

This judgment was applied in accordance with the voluntarily agreement of the Jews to be bound by the final verdict.

Banu Qurayza unfortunately faced this harsh punishment due to their very serious act of treason, which entirely undermined the fragile stability of the community. In fact, the Jews did not object to this judgment

If that does not ring your bullsh1t detector, I don't know what will.

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Interesting approach there. So according to you, no self-defensive action taken by the muslims against their enemies can be justified

Collective punishment cannot be justified. Banishing an entire tribe because a woman was disrobed is collective punishment, and the scheming of a different tribe of Jews does not change this. Furthermore, slaughtering POWs is a pretty low act, as is Muhammed's Pontius Pilate style handling of it. I don't really care what some tribal Arab warlord did 1400 years ago, but when Muslims try to bring those standards into the modern world there is a problem.

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All three jewish tribes that were removed from Medina were tribes that had committed acts of war and/or had broken the terms of the covenant they were living under.

So the entire tribe disrobed a Muslim woman? The entire tribe attempted to assassinate Muhammed? Where is your bullsh1t detector Gadnalf?

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Therefore the conflict between these tribes and the muslims should be viewed through the lens of power-politics, not religious persecution.

Ah, so it is more like Nazism?

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At least provide some evidence that the arabs who invaded Israel were motivated by Muhammad's example of "wiping out" the jews

Sorry. You are right. There is no reason at all to think that Muslim Arabs engaging in ethnic cleansing in 1948 were in any way motivated by Muhammed and his band of Muslim Arabs engaging in ethnic cleansing 1400 years ago.

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I literally don't follow. Mind explaining?

The disrobing example you gave is an example of collective punishment. You appear to think it is not. I have only been saying the same thing in every single post in this thread.

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But I understand that both should be viewed through the contemporary political dynamics in the region - not an absurd and irrelevant reference to a 1400 year old myth.

I thought you were a muslim. Would you mind explaining the myth thing?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from Reply #53 - Jul 10^th, 2013 at 9:23am FD I'd really like to hear your thoughts about the Isreali actions against both the Palestinians and the British (terrorism, ethnic cleansing) before the arabs intervened - and how this fits in with your "finishing what Hitler/Muhammad started" meme.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #54 - Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:16am

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Did the whole tribe of Banu Nazir attempt to assassinate Muhammed?

I think you mean the Banu Qaynuqa. From wikipedia:

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In March 624, Muslims led by Muhammad defeated the Meccans of the Banu Quraish tribe in the Battle of Badr. Ibn Ishaq writes that a dispute broke out between the Muslims and the Banu Qaynuqa (the allies of the Khazraj tribe) soon afterwards. When a Muslim woman visited a jeweler's shop in the Qaynuqa marketplace, she was pestered to uncover her hair. The goldsmith, a Jew, pinned her clothing such that, upon getting up, she was stripped naked. A Muslim man coming upon the resulting commotion killed the shopkeeper in retaliation. A mob of Jews from the Qaynuqa tribe then pounced on the Muslim man and killed him. This escalated to a chain of revenge killings, and enmity grew between Muslims and the Banu Qaynuqa.

Clearly it was not just one event, but a series of events that made coexistence impossible.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Well obviously he would be far more politically correct about it.

translation: I'm making sh!t up - again.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

This was in your second post Gandalf:

This judgment was applied in accordance with the voluntarily agreement of the Jews to be bound by the final verdict.

Banu Qurayza unfortunately faced this harsh punishment due to their very serious act of treason, which entirely undermined the fragile stability of the community. In fact, the Jews did not object to this judgment

If that does not ring your bullsh1t detector, I don't know what will.

Well not to be picky, but it wasn't my words, but the article I was quoting. I wouldn't say "the Jews did not object to this judgment" - but it is clearly referring to the fact that they were judged by the person and the laws that they requested. Either way, no one is claiming the jews were "happy" to be executed - as you claimed.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Ah, so it is more like Nazism?

Shows how much you know about the nazis. The actions of Muhammad against the jews was practically necessary to remove serious and real armed threats to the very survival of a fledgling nation. On the other hand, dedicating enormous resources to seeking out, rounding up and conducting an industrial-level slaughter of the entire jewish population of Europe not only didn't help the nazi war effort, it greatly damaged it. The actions of Muhammad were driven by power politics and practical necessity, the actions of the nazis were driven by a blind, fanatical ideology. It really doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how ridiculous this comparison is.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Sorry. You are right. There is no reason at all to think that Muslim Arabs engaging in ethnic cleansing in 1948 were in any way motivated by Muhammed and his band of Muslim Arabs engaging in ethnic cleansing 1400 years ago.

Correct.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

The disrobing example you gave is an example of collective punishment. You appear to think it is not.

On the contrary - if an entire tribe was expelled for that single action, that would be unfair, and an example of collective punishment. That was obviously not the whole story though - see my link I posted earlier.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

I thought you were a muslim. Would you mind explaining the myth thing?

The myth that Muhammad hated jews and engaged in collective punishment, and worked to ethnically cleanse the jews from Arabia.

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #55 - Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:02pm

Quote:

FD I'd really like to hear your thoughts about the Isreali actions against both the Palestinians and the British (terrorism, ethnic cleansing) before the arabs intervened - and how this fits in with your "finishing what Hitler/Muhammad started" meme.

It is not a meme.

The Jews that were expelled from Arab countries had nothing to do with what was going on previously in Israel. It is very similar to Muhammed's style of collective punishment. Contrary to your claims of Jews thriving under Islam (notwithstanding the occasional slaughter), there were not that many left in Arabia by last century and they took the opportunity to get rid of he rest of them. It seems reasonable to me to characterise is as finishing of Muhammed's work, or Hitler's, given the timing. I doubt the intention of the Arabs was to strengthen a Jewish Israel and give the Jews a territorial foothold by putting all the Jews in one place. It is thus no surprise that they invaded again shortly after kicking the Jews out of their own countries. If they had won that war, it would have been yet another holocaust.

Prior to this, I don't think the Jews did anything wrong in moving to Israel, as they did so voluntarily, and for the ones fleeing nearby Arab lands it was the nearest suitable plase for them. I have seen some criticism of this on the grounds that it violated British law. Once they took over and formed government, it was wrong of them to forcibly evict Palestinians. The violence that occured between the British pulling out and the new administration forming was also wrong.

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I think you mean the Banu Qaynuqa.

No Gandalf I mean the Nazir. I keep referring to your opening posts in this thread. However throughout this whole discussion you have grown completely oblivious to your own opening posts. This is the first line in your second post:

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First, the Banu Nazir attempted to assassinate the Prophet

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Clearly it was not just one event, but a series of events that made coexistence impossible.

By the same standard the Jews have every right to expel the Palestinians, to capture and slaughter all the soldiers who participated in the various invading forces, and to take their wives as sex slaves. Even coming close to the Islamic standard makes violence and misery on a grand scale inevitable. And I am sure the Jews could find something similar to the disrobing incident to allow them to blame the whole thing on the Muslims, if they wanted to stoop that low.

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Well not to be picky, but it wasn't my words, but the article I was quoting. I wouldn't say "the Jews did not object to this judgment"

Would you mind pointing out the other bits in your opening posts that you disagree with? Otherwise I forsee myself spending another four pages trying to get you to acknowledge what you posted, only to find that you also think the whole article is a load of apologetic crap and does nothing to undermine the accusations of collective punishment, genocide etc against Muhammed.

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Shows how much you know about the nazis. The actions of Muhammad against the jews was practically necessary to remove serious and real armed threats to the very survival of a fledgling nation.

You left out disrobing incidents. Was it necessary to prevent that sort of thing happening, or have you gone back to pretending that never happened?

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On the other hand, dedicating enormous resources to seeking out, rounding up and conducting an industrial-level slaughter of the entire jewish population of Europe not only didn't help the nazi war effort, it greatly damaged it. The actions of Muhammad were driven by power politics and practical necessity, the actions of the nazis were driven by a blind, fanatical ideology. It really doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how ridiculous this comparison is.

Can you explain to me how you think making a bitter enemy of an entire Jewish tribe over the disrobing incident helped Muhammed's war effort? Did it help because Muhammed was hoping he would face them in battle some time later and wipe them out completely? I fail to see the distinction you are making between Muhammed and Hitler, except of course that Muhammed won. Beside that it is all eerily similar.

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On the contrary - if an entire tribe was expelled for that single action, that would be unfair, and an example of collective punishment. That was obviously not the whole story though - see my link I posted earlier.

The link you posted earlier does not contradict the claim of collective punishment.

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The myth that Muhammad hated jews and engaged in collective punishment, and worked to ethnically cleanse the jews from Arabia.

He did ethnically cleanse all non-Muslims from a significant area. I have already linked to discussions with other Muslims where they openly admit this. In addition, you have presented clear examples in this thread of collective punishment.

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #56 - Jul 10^th, 2013 at 11:14pm

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

The Jews that were expelled from Arab countries had nothing to do with what was going on previously in Israel.

Agreed - but thats not the point. I think this such blatant airbrushing of Israeli history needs its own thread, there are clearly two separate topics here.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

No Gandalf I mean the Nazir. I keep referring to your opening posts in this thread. However throughout this whole discussion you have grown completely oblivious to your own opening posts. This is the first line in your second post:

I see. And in answer to your previous question, as far as I know the whole tribe conspired to assassinate him. The plan certainly was made at the highest levels - as the leader of the tribe was the one who tried to lure him to his place in order for the assassination to take place. In troubled times, with enemies all around and with a very real existential threat to the community - you simply can't afford to have a tribe living amongst you who is plotting to kill you. So tough titties - its not about punishment, but about removing a grave threat to your survival.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

Would you mind pointing out the other bits in your opening posts that you disagree with?

I don't disagree with the overall tone of the article. The point I disagreed on does not make one bit of difference to my overall argument.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

Otherwise I forsee myself spending another four pages trying to get you to acknowledge what you posted, only to find that you also think the whole article is a load of apologetic crap and does nothing to undermine the accusations of collective punishment, genocide etc against Muhammed.

Well let me save you the trouble by stating right now that the article is perfectly fine for discrediting your simplistic and bigoted views about how Muhammad's treatment of jews can be traced back to the inherent evilness of islam.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

You left out disrobing incidents. Was it necessary to prevent that sort of thing happening, or have you gone back to pretending that never happened?

I explained the derobing incident in my last post. Please do try and keep up FD. I know it can be hard with all the time you waste on nitpicking and obfuscation.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

Can you explain to me how you think making a bitter enemy of an entire Jewish tribe over the disrobing incident helped Muhammed's war effort?

Don't be ridiculous. That was covered in my last post. I even specifically said that no one was expelled over one person being disrobed. It was a build up tensions that almost certainly didn't start with this one incident. Regardless of who was to blame, the long and the short of it was that the tribe effectively declared a state of war against the muslims - while they were living under a covenant with the muslims. This is obviously unacceptable for a fledgling community fighting for its very survival, and with enemies all around it. So again, tough titties - off you go.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

The link you posted earlier does not contradict the claim of collective punishment.

You are playing a silly semantic game. The whole point of this thread was not to debate the term 'collective punishment', but to understand the context of Muhammad's relations with the jews. You look at seemingly harsh measures taken by the prophet, ignore the context, and label them with emotive terms like 'collective punishment', and say "thats all there is to it". I'm here to say that there is a hell of a lot more to it than that.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

He did ethnically cleanse all non-Muslims from a significant area.

No he didn't FD. There were at least 7 jewish tribes that remained under the Medina Covenant. We know these jews were still with the muslims even after the prophet's death - when, for example, they participated in the capture of Jerusalem.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

I have already linked to discussions with other Muslims where they openly admit this

If they did say this, they are wrong. Jews remained in Saudi Arabia continuously up until the 1950s.

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #57 - Jul 11^th, 2013 at 10:13pm

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Agreed - but thats not the point.

Well you asked me what it had to do with the "meme". That is my point.

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I see. And in answer to your previous question, as far as I know the whole tribe conspired to assassinate him. The plan certainly was made at the highest levels - as the leader of the tribe was the one who tried to lure him to his place in order for the assassination to take place. In troubled times, with enemies all around and with a very real existential threat to the community - you simply can't afford to have a tribe living amongst you who is plotting to kill you. So tough titties - its not about punishment, but about removing a grave threat to your survival.

So what actually happened? Did mo go?

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I don't disagree with the overall tone of the article. The point I disagreed on does not make one bit of difference to my overall argument.

So you agree with the tone, even though the the details are a "bit misleading"?

The article attempts to discredit two claims:

1) Muhammed engaged in collective punishment.

2) Muhammed engaged in ethnic cleansing.

It claims to achieve the second one, yet completely ignores the obvious examples of ethnic cleansing. For the first one, it cites three examples. Two appear to be collective punishment, one quite blatant. The third is an act of pure barbarity, topped off with a convenient Pontius Pilate impersonation from Muhammed. It kind of lumps all three examples together, as if this somehow helps the argument against collective punishment. You have done the same every step of the way.

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Well let me save you the trouble by stating right now that the article is perfectly fine for discrediting your simplistic and bigoted views about how Muhammad's treatment of jews can be traced back to the inherent evilness of islam.

Not sure of your reasoning here. Muhammed is Islam. It's a very short trace. Did you mean to refer to the modern treatment of Arab Jews?

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I explained the derobing incident in my last post. Please do try and keep up FD. I know it can be hard with all the time you waste on nitpicking and obfuscation.

This is the extent of the "explanation":

1) Jew disrobes Muslim woman.

2) Muslim man kills Jew.

3) Jewish men kill Muslim man.

4) Muslims don't like to talk about this bit.

5) Muhammed boots out the entire tribe.

6) This somehow helped the war effort and was justified because some other Jewish tribe attacked the Muslims, and creating more enemies would solve all their problems.

It still looks like collective punishment to me.

Quote:

Don't be ridiculous. That was covered in my last post. I even specifically said that no one was expelled over one person being disrobed.

Right. Muhammed escalated it to kicking out the entire Jewish tribe. What happened in the gap Gandalf? Yet another violent rampage by Muslims, who wore themselves out and demanded Muhammed finish the job for them?

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It was a build up tensions that almost certainly didn't start with this one incident.

Ah, so we have a second point from your original post that you disagree with. Would you mind pointing out the rest? This really will be tedious if I have to do it one by one.

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Regardless of who was to blame, the long and the short of it was that the tribe effectively declared a state of war against the muslims

Funny how you forgot to mention that until now.

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You are playing a silly semantic game. The whole point of this thread was not to debate the term 'collective punishment', but to understand the context of Muhammad's relations with the jews.

Are you suggesting that it was collective punishment, but that is OK because those scheming Jews had it coming? Why post an article claiming to disprove the claim of collective punishment if you don't believe it?

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You look at seemingly harsh measures taken by the prophet, ignore the context, and label them with emotive terms like 'collective punishment'

Collective punishment is not an emotive term. Of all the criticisms of Muhammed, it would have to be one of the least emotive. Most people would have to stop and think what it actually means.

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I'm here to say that there is a hell of a lot more to it than that.

ie, those scheming Jews had it coming?

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If they did say this, they are wrong. Jews remained in Saudi Arabia continuously up until the 1950s.

Well here are some examples, just so you know what we are talking about:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1211960725/4#4

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226292000/10#10

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1170642873/288#288

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1170642873/294#294

I have seen different explanations - eg they all magically converted, they were forcibly relocated, they deserved it (just like those pesky jews) etc, however all this came after the fact that Muhammed decreed the ares be cleansed of all non-Muslims, and all the Muslims I have spoken too seemed a bit reluctant to go into any details.

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #58 - Jul 11^th, 2013 at 11:17pm

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 10:13pm:

So you agree with the tone, even though the the details are a "bit misleading"?

LOL why do you put that in inverted commas as if I said that? I never said anything from the article was a "bit misleading". What the author meant is pretty obvious, and I totally agree with that.

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 10:13pm:

The article attempts to discredit two claims:

1) Muhammed engaged in collective punishment.

2) Muhammed engaged in ethnic cleansing.

Actually neither I nor the article claimed any such thing. This is the problem with your semantic argument - its not about a nonsense debate over meaningless terms, its a debate about Muhammad's intentions towards the jews, and whether islam is inherently anti-semitic. From the first paragraph of the article:

"Was Prophet Muhammad Anti-Semitic, and did he slaughter the men, women, and children of the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza? Did he plan an ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people from the Arabian Peninsula?"

As I've been saying all along, its completely pointless taking what happened in complete isolation and simply labelling it "garr - evil muslims - collective punishment" - its about perspective, and the reasons for what happened - as I said in the OP.

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 10:13pm:

Muhammed is Islam.

Exactly. Your position of painting islam as an evil, anti-semitic religion depends on painting Muhammad as an evil anti-semite. You have spectacularly failed at this.

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 10:13pm:

Right. Muhammed escalated it to kicking out the entire Jewish tribe. What happened in the gap Gandalf? Yet another violent rampage by Muslims, who wore themselves out and demanded Muhammed finish the job for them?

You could save yourself some trouble and read all about it in the wiki article I already linked. Modern historians are quoted as referring to the precarious position Muhammad found himself in: with a powerful and virtually autonomous tribe under his roof, acting belligerently at a time when his pagan enemies were expected at any moment to march out in force to annihilate the vulnerable muslim community once and for all. When Muhammad confronted the tribal leaders, they effectively declared a state of war with the muslims. Regardless of which party was most at fault, this was obviously an intolerable situation for a vulnerable community fighting for its very survival. Again - nothing to do with anti-semitism, everything to do with power-politics.

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 10:13pm:

Collective punishment is not an emotive term.

Of course it is. To say it isn't is ridiculous. The term was born from the massacres during WWI and WWII when civilians were killed for the crimes of enemy combatants. It refers to intimidatory actions to terrorise the civilian population. What Muhammad did to the jews cannot be seen in this light, however much you want to twist it.

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 10:13pm:

Well here are some examples, just so you know what we are talking about:

FD, not a single one of those posts says anything that supports the view that jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabia - or any part of Arabia. What exactly were you trying to show me FD?

My personal favourite from those links:

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You've proven time and time again, you're not interested in answers freediver, even when you get them, you resort to calling all Muslim habitual liars and deceivers. So please spare us this rot, about how hard it is for you to get a straight answer. We're just not inclined to engage you in the kind of loaded discussions you want, where you suggest something, and then go on to paint every answer or response as a lie, deflection, omission of truth etc.

hmmm seems you haven't changed much in 5 years.

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #59 - Jul 12^th, 2013 at 12:51pm

Quote:

Actually neither I nor the article claimed any such thing. This is the problem with your semantic argument - its not about a nonsense debate over meaningless terms, its a debate about Muhammad's intentions towards the jews, and whether islam is inherently anti-semitic.

So you were just trying to trick me into thinking this thread had something to do with where the collective punishment "meme" comes from? Should I start a different thread on collective punishment so I can leave this one to whatever particular claim you are trying to invent and then disprove?

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As I've been saying all along, its completely pointless taking what happened in complete isolation and simply labelling it "garr - evil muslims - collective punishment" - its about perspective

Gandalf, principled opposition to collective punishment is not supposed to be something you merely discard once you feel the need to collectively punish people. The context does not change the facts. It is still collective punishment, even though those scheming Jews had it coming.

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Exactly. Your position of painting islam as an evil, anti-semitic religion depends on painting Muhammad as an evil anti-semite. You have spectacularly failed at this.

My argument is that Muhammed engaged in collective punishment. And ethnic cleansing.

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Of course it is. To say it isn't is ridiculous. The term was born from the massacres during WWI and WWII when civilians were killed for the crimes of enemy combatants. It refers to intimidatory actions to terrorise the civilian population. What Muhammad did to the jews cannot be seen in this light, however much you want to twist it.

So you don't think kicking people out of their homes can count as collective punishment, unless you also slaughter them? What about turning the women into sex slaves? Does that count as punishment? Or "protective custody"?

Quote:

FD, not a single one of those posts says anything that supports the view that jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabia - or any part of Arabia. What exactly were you trying to show me FD?

I never said it was limited to Jews. As I have said, over and over again, he cleansed an area of all non-Muslims, notably including Christians and Pagans. Remnants of it survive to this day. Muhammed decreed it must happen, and his followers went about finding excuses to forcibly relocate everyone who refused to convert to Islam, so they could blame it all on the non-Muslims.

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