polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 3:21pm:


Did you pluck that from your ass gandalf?

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Jews

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 2:55pm:




THE ARGUMENT GOES.....

All members of a society should pay tax?

All members of the islamic community pay tax.

Non-moslems must pay a tax which is called Jiza.

While moslems pay a different tax.

Moslems argue [**] that social and societal discrimination [based upon a persons religion], is not discriminatory.

I've never understood this type of argument.








**
Most moslem morality arguments are [usually irrational or outright logically false, and ] those arguments are almost always made to disavow, or to deflect some obvious perception of injustice, on the part of a moslem/ISLAMIC stance on some issue.

But levying one particular tax upon moslems, but then levying an altogether different tax upon non-moslems [within a single society], is founded upon the undeniable egalitarian nature of ISLAM.            

Check the quote again - you'll find it wasn't a command. If indeed its even authentic. And besides, it wasn't something that was achieved during his lifetime.

Look at the Charter of Medina - not exactly a portent to expulsion is it? If the prophet did resolve to remove all non-muslims from the Hijaz, its only because his hand was forced. Non-muslims were certainly given every opportunity to live in peace with the muslims.

Gandalf, before we go too far down the path of ethnic cleansing, would you mind clarifying your position on collective punishment? Six pages in and I still have no clue where you stand. Are you still disagreeing on the definition of collective punishment (without actually saying what it is or should be)? Do you concede Muhammed engaged in collective punishment? When you say the context is important, are you saying the context justifies or excuses it?

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 8:28pm:


Thats because my position on collective punishment has no relevance to this thread - as explained many times. But if it matters to you so much, please feel free to call the expulsions collective punishment - you seem determined to do so anyway. But what I'm interested in is how this punishment came about, and whether it fits into an anti-semitic, religiously intolerant mold. Where a case can be made that the actions were purely about strategic defense, and power politics, and not anti-semitism - which the OP has made - where is the justification that islam is inherently intolerant of jews, and has a sinister anti-jew agenda - based on these events?

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 8:25pm:


Not at all. Cue your 'scheming jews' standard retort.

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 8:25pm:


There are plenty of historical accounts about the breakdown in relations between the muslims and the jews. I'm not aware of any that point to a sinister anti-jewish agenda that pre-planned an ethnic cleansing program.

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 8:25pm:


Read the covenant - they had freedom and equality.

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 9:34pm:


Yeah, pretty much.

Try, if you can, to view this outside the prevailing "can't ever say anything negative about the jews" prism that we live in today. I know it can be hard, since it is so culturally entrenched. But it shouldn't make us intellectually dishonest about historical facts. If you have any valid evidence that these jewish tribes were victims of an anti-semitic agenda, by all means present it. I haven't seen any yet. All I see is political conflict between competing rival powers, which eventually came to a head. In the absense of evidence to the contrary, Muhammad should get the benefit of the doubt that he was sincere about his commitment to coexist peacefully with his non-muslim neighbours - until he was forced to change because of strategic-defensive concerns.

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 2:52pm:


Have to wonder why you didn't post the whole hadeeth. Is it because you wish to deceive?

Quote:


Sounds like a prophesy.

A command would be more like: "...the Messenger of God said: I (Umar) must expel the Jews and Christians..." or "...the Messenger of God said: I (Umar) should expel the Jews and Christians..."

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 8:24pm:


You left out the part that Umar was speaking about a prophesy regarding himself. By leaving out who was narrating the hadeeth, how are people to know who was saying "I will"?